I know I "messed up," but please help me develop Tri-X at 1600

I'm brand new to photography and anlaog. A month ago, I picked up a Pentax Spotmatic before going on vacation. Before leaving, I tested out 2 color rolls and had them developed to test for light leaks... then i did just enough reading about B&W, Home development, and push-processing to get me into trouble. I picked up a bunch of rolls of Tri-X and headed out.

I shot a lot of stuff at night on the streets (including food vendors, neon signs, etc). Based on the light meter on the camera, 400 speed wasn't going to cut it most of the time, so i set my EI to either 800 or 1600 for the majority of the rolls with the intention of developing them at home... (I've never developed anyting before).

I UNDERSTAND NOW THAT I SHOULDN'T HAVE "EXPERIMENTED" BEFORE HAVING A CLUE WHAT I WAS DOING (i also know that there are wildly divided opinions on whether Tri-X is suitable for pushing that far)... the damage is done. Please help me move forward from here.

So - I'm back home, and I've picked up all the gear i need to develop. I shot a few "test rolls" at 1600 and 800, but not necessarily in "similar lighting conditions." I don't want to spend the rest of my life developing test rolls, so where should i start with these test rolls?

I was originally intending to do stand development in Rodinal. I liked the idea of a liquid developer that keeps forever, and I've also seen what look to be great results from this. I would also love to be able to "standardize" so i use the same developer/film combo moving forward..... But then i read posts of people shouting about how pushing Tri-X with Rodinal in stand development is idiotic.

Currently, i own some Microphen, Rodinal, and D-76. I'm willing to pick something else up if its a better option, but i really need to stop overthinking this and start somewhere. Unfortunately, everything i read seems to gives me wildly different advice about how to proceed with developing these pushed rolls.

Any help?

Welcome to APUG.

I would say that things aren't as bad as you've feared. You will get a ton of advice, and most of it will be different than the next. That's sort of the way things go. Everyone has different taste in negatives. Some people only scan and thus want a fairly flat negative, some people print on graded paper and want to control contrast in the negative by using different developer dilutions and/or processing times.

Since you're new, I would say that you send these rolls out to a lab for processing and save the developers you've purchased for film you don't care about. Get a dozen or so rolls of Arista EDU 100 or 400 or HP5 or whatever, and pick one of those developers and use it until you know everything you need to know - how to load the reels, how to dilute, how to agitate, etc.

I would recommend you use one developer and one film until you acquire this knowledge. Once you have nailed the basics, experiment with pushing, different developers, etc. You can't know how something changed until you know what you changed. Too many variables right now since you're a beginner.

In short - you're in information overload. Send this film off to a lab and get it processed. The lab WILL give you usable results. Nail the basics and next time you go on a trip, you'll be able to process all the film yourself and know exactly how to do it.

Whatever you decide, good luck!

EDIT: I will say that if you look at my join date, I did all this not too long ago. I tried to do things the same way, dive in with 4 developers and 5 different film types, pushing and pulling, stand development, etc. I learned with enough bad results that starting back at square 1 with D-76 and Tri-X at box speed helped me nail the basics that I tried to skip over.

Tru-X pushes to 1600 nicely. Just don't use Rodinal to develop it though. I prefer Rodinal with much slower film (100 and lower). It's not always very sympathetic to faster films. And stand developing isn't a magic bullet and can result in halos in high contrast areas.

For Tri-X at 1600 I would use D76 stock (of the developers you've mentioned). There are loads of combinations and you will undoubtedly hear most of them here ;-) but Tri-X and D-76 is a classic combination.

D-76 Stock would be 9'30" at 20°C for Tri-X at 1600.

Don't worry. experiment away. When you feel like being more consistent and nailing the craft with fewer variables you'll know that that's what you want to do. There are no rights and wrongs, everybody has their own way of learning.

If you'd shot at box speed the only difference would be the length of time in the developer. Everything else is the same. Just take your time to get it all right and be prepared (have everything ready and organised so you reduce the risk of making the kind of silly mistakes I keep making ;-)

Of the first 100 rolls or so I developed I only completely ruined 1 roll (an early attempt at C-41). Of the others, of course there are many that I could have done better with but I learnt from all my mistakes. But they were otherwise useable if not optimal.

Oh and don't worry it's all good and all part of the fun of learning

klownshed said:

Tru-X pushes to 1600 nicely. Just don't use Rodinal to develop it though. I prefer Rodinal with much slower film (100 and lower). It's not always very sympathetic to faster films. And stand developing isn't a magic bullet and can result in halos in high contrast areas.

For Tri-X at 1600 I would use D76 stock (of the developers you've mentioned). There are loads of combinations and you will undoubtedly hear most of them here ;-) but Tri-X and D-76 is a classic combination.

D-76 Stock would be 9'30" at 20°C for Tri-X at 1600.

Don't worry. experiment away. When you feel like being more consistent and nailing the craft with fewer variables you'll know that that's what you want to do. There are no rights and wrongs, everybody has their own way of learning.

If you'd shot at box speed the only difference would be the length of time in the developer. Everything else is the same. Just take your time to get it all right and be prepared (have everything ready and organised so you reduce the risk of making the kind of silly mistakes I keep making ;-)

Of the first 100 rolls or so I developed I only completely ruined 1 roll (an early attempt at C-41). Of the others, of course there are many that I could have done better with but I learnt from all my mistakes. But they were otherwise useable if not optimal.

Oh and don't worry it's all good and all part of the fun of learning

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Good advice as well. As long as you don't put in the fixer before the developer or fumble when loading and kink/scratch the film, or other things that would ruin it, you're very likely to get at least workable results if you DIY. Even if you're not perfect with your agitation or dilution or temperature, Tri-X and D-76 is forgiving enough (especially at 9 minutes and 30 seconds processing time) to smooth over most minor mistakes.

brofkand said:

I would say that you send these rolls out to a lab for processing and save the developers you've purchased for film you don't care about.

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While i agree that this is the logical thing to do, my wife would kill me. I have about 10 rolls. Once I develop the negatives, my local lab will scan for only $1.50/roll...... plus, i feel like i'll have a much greater attachment to (and pride in) the pictures if i develop myself

brofkand said:

Some people only scan and thus want a fairly flat negative, some people print on graded paper and want to control contrast in the negative by using different developer dilutions and/or processing times.

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Oh jeez.... i sense more information overload approaching. My plan is to have the lab scan the negatives. Hopefully, there will be a few that i like. I'll have them printed at 8x10 and frame for hanging on my own wall at home. I honestly hadn't even considered this step yet. Any advice on the best way to go about this? i have a REEEEAAAALLLY bad tendency to overthink everything.

brofkand said:

Get a dozen or so rolls of Arista EDU 100 or 400 or HP5 or whatever, and pick one of those developers and use it until you know everything you need to know

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Any reason why Tri-X is no good? (i just bought a bunch more rolls of it for just this reason... want to get familiar with one film)

klownshed said:

D-76 Stock would be 9'30" at 20°C for Tri-X at 1600.

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any tips for nailing the temperature exactly? Is it more of a "get it to 20°C before you start," or a ""somehow make sure it stays at 20°C for the whole 9'30"?

Also - as i understand it, D-76 is re-usable, right? Think i could manage to get 10 rolls out of 1L?

Eggvillan said:

I'm brand new to photography and anlaog.
Any help?

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I think the big thing here is don't get weighed down with the details. You will hear every tip and trick on how to get the most out of that negative but it's pretty hard to not get at least some picture out of your negative. Just develop a roll, get a result and enjoy it! Then worry about refining and improving your technique.

Eggvillan said:

any tips for nailing the temperature exactly?

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When I started I used a washing up bowl. Fill it up with water and using a kettle get the temperature to about 22°C.

Warm your developer, fix and stop in the water bath until they are all stable at just over 20. In the summer you shouldn't need to worry much about temperature losses. In the winter just keep the water bath topped up with hot water to maintain temperature.

When you are developing, keep the tank in the water bath in between inversions.p

It's that simple.

Try not to make things any more complicated than they need to be.

If you use D-76 stock solution it is reusable. You will get 10 rolls out of it. But you need to extend developing time +10% for each subsequent roll (up to 90% longer for roll 10).

Welcome to APUG

I have no experience with Tri-X at 1600 but Tri-X has a wide light range latitude.

Eggvillan said:

Oh jeez.... i sense more information overload approaching. My plan is to have the lab scan the negatives. Hopefully, there will be a few that i like. I'll have them printed at 8x10 and frame for hanging on my own wall at home. I honestly hadn't even considered this step yet. Any advice on the best way to go about this? i have a REEEEAAAALLLY bad tendency to overthink everything.

Any reason why Tri-X is no good? (i just bought a bunch more rolls of it for just this reason... want to get familiar with one film)

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Don't worry about the first part. You should get usable results for scanning or printing.

Tri-X is perfectly fine, I have no problems at all with it. The others were just examples; use what you like.

relax, take a deep breath... you'll be fine, your negatives will come out - just keep it simple.

welcome to apug!

To the OP

There is a lot to learn in film photography and as with many new things at first it may seem overwhelming.

I like to have good firm data to hand, especially when learning something new. I like to learn by reading. I like to locate the technical information from the manufacturer because it is a source of reliable information. You have chosen a film that is accompanied by much technical information because Kodak supports their products well, and these films have been around a while.

Here are the Kodak data sheets

current Kodak Professional films: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/professional-photographers/photographers/professional-films

Historical Kodak TriX data (2003) http://wwwuk.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f9/f9.pdf

TriX data (F4017) http://wwwuk.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4017/f4017.pdf

Happy reading

As others have said, Tri-X at 1600 is a pretty common push and it shouldn't be hard to find times for it. The Massive Dev Chart, usually a good starting point, says 9.5 minutes in D-76 stock, or 12 minutes in Microphen stock.

Have you got the hang of loading the reels yet? In my experience, bad loading is a much more likely problem source than bad development.

-NT

First, welcome to APUG and film photography.
Second, I'd suggest something like "don't worry, be happy" .
Essentially, what you have (most likely) done is under-exposed your film. What you are asking here is how best to get the most out of the results.
It probably wasn't the best way to start out, but it isn't an absolute disaster either.
You have referred to "pushing" film. Strictly speaking that is only a reference to changing how long you develop the film, but common usage has come to mean under-exposing the film, and then over-developing it to preserve what can be preserved.
The most important thing to understand is that by under-exposing the film, you won't have recorded all the shadow detail that you might want, and nothing you do in the development stage can bring that shadow detail back, It is gone forever.
When you "push" development, you are not increasing the shadow detail or "speed" of the film in any meaningful way. Instead, you are increasing the contrast of the near-shadow and mid-tones in the scene. As a result, those darker tones look and print better. However, the brighter highlights also are affected - in some cases they become unusable while in other cases they just require more work at the printing/post processing stage to look good in the print. An acronym that came to my attention as a result of one of the books of my youth comes to mind: TANSTAAFL.
So you are at a point where you want to make the best of what you have done, and now you understand that it is going to mean accepting some compromises. I have some suggestions.
As an aside, you mention scanning your film. While lots of us on APUG have at least some experience with scanning, strictly speaking scanning discussions and other digital process discussions aren't allowed on APUG. So if you see any references to printing, you should expect it to be references to darkroom printing.
As for those suggestions:
1) Over the centuries, Eastman Kodak and now Kodak Alaris have published a treasure trove of information. Included in that information are film data sheets, including one for modern Tri-X. And included in that data sheet are recommendations for push processing Tri-X in various Kodak developers. Here is the link to where on Kodak Alaris' site you will find the Tri-X data sheet: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/products/f4017.pdf . Given that you already have it, I'd use D-76;
2) You will note that the push processing recommendations for Tri-X start at an EI of 1600 (two stops under-exposure). That is because Tri-X under-exposed by just one stop is probably best developed normally;
3) If you were going to do a lot of this under-exposure of Tri-X, I would also suggest you consider a rather special purpose developer - Diafine. Diafine often works best with Tri-X metered at higher EIs. Personally, I'm not overly fond of Diafine, because it tends to give lower contrast results (better for sc***ing than darkroom printing). It is also expensive to buy, although as it permits multiple re-uses, it can work out to be economical to use. I think though that it is better to become familiar with some of the more standard developers and standard processes first;
4) As you will see from the Tri-X data sheet, you can develop film at a range of temperatures. You just need to adjust your time accordingly. I try to work at room temperature always. You need to allow the chemicals to come to that temperature before use, and you do need a reliable thermometer. For black and white darkrooms, the digital kitchen thermometers are okay - consistency is more important than absolute accuracy;
5) I would suggest developing one of the EI 800 test rolls at the Kodak recommended "normal" time and one of the EI 1600 test rolls at the Kodak recommended "push to 1600" time and then photograph the resulting negatives for posting here. We can then give you our thoughts about how we would assess them. It doesn't help to post scans of the negatives, because the scanning adds its own set of variables.
Most importantly, you need to have fun. It also wouldn't hurt to take some detailed notes as you go.

hi Eggvillan
as others have suggested it isn't really trouble
kodak suggests when shooting at 800 you develop normally
a general rule of thumb is when doubling the iso you develop an extra 30%
and in reverse, when halving the iso you develop your film less 30% ..
that said, keep in mind film processed less than 5mins might be unevenly developed
i wouldn't worry too much about not having a test roll to process in the same light conditons / speed &c
its pretty straight forward ... if you worry your lighting conditions were harsh maybe lessen hte 30% to 25% ..
most times given for processing film are starting points, and they were figured out in a lab setting &c
i know my darkroom isn't a kodak clean room, and i don't agitate the same as a kodak scientist ..
there really are no rules for much, and most rules are meant to be broken anyways ...
good luck !
john

ps. if you are worried about highlights being all blocked up &c pick up some sprint film developer and use that.
its like d76 but different, doesn't block highlights like mad, ez to mix ( 1:9 ) and they have a giant chart on the sprint website
(http://sprintsystems.com/time-charts/ ) for lots of films and lighting conditions, over/under exposure scenarios &c

FilmDev is another resource you can check out. It gives a number of examples of various films exposed at different EI and developed with different developers.

http://filmdev.org/recipe/finder/?find=Tri-x++in+d76

I think the key is to realize 1) you're fine (Everyone makes mistakes. My first roll was cake out blank because I agitated so aggressively that the film came off the reel. You can only move forward from here.) and 2) this fact can be liberating. Once you accept mistakes happen despite best intentions, you can focus on shooting and not worry about having shot that perfect photo. Someone once said her best photo is her next one.

Remember, the negative is only the intermediate step. The print is the final output and there is much you can still do to arrive at that final print.

I like to do TX in Diafine, although I only get an EI of 1250 with it, not 1600, but pretty close. Try a test roll.

I dont see the problem. Sounds like you had your camera set up right -im assuming aperture was maxed out and shutter at 1/3oth or something around there - if it was night shooting. You took a load of rolls - now just slowly work through them - start with microphen do a roll. See what you get from scans. Change time in developer with less or more time for next roll - see what you get. If it looks good then develop a few rolls like that. Then try a different development technique and keep going. If you arent experimenting and failing you arent a film photographer as far as im concerned. Youve set yourself up nicely here so just get stuck in.

I send my b/w film to a lab for develop only service. I've gotten surprisingly nice results with them rating Tri-x at 1600 and developing in XTOL in a dip-and-dunk setup. I was expecting more grittiness than I got. I've had several situations where I had to rate it at 1600 in order to get the shot, and have been very pleased with the results.

Dale

Dear Eggvillan,

Buy a packet of Xtol, mix with distilled water and follow the instructions on the attached data sheet. Full strength will give you a slightly smoother look while 1:1 will appear slightly sharper. The difference is subtle.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

First - thank you everyone for taking the time to reply! I think the general message is "calm down, you'll be okay"

Ces1um said:

I think the big thing here is don't get weighed down with the details.

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If i had a therapist, i'm sure that it a mantra they would repeat with respect to all aspects of my life. I have a (bad) habit of over-thinking, over-researching, and over-analyzing everything

ntenny said:

Have you got the hang of loading the reels yet?

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I have a patterson 2-reel tank. I have loaded it in the light using a "test" roll of film.... I have not yet tried actually taking the film out of the canister to load it on (i just pull the leader out, fit it to the reel's sprockets, and start winding). I've done this a few times with my eyes closed, but will practice a few more before i dive in for real. That being said, i'm not 100% clear on how to open the canister - looks like a regular beer bottle opener will work?

jnanian said:

ps. if you are worried about highlights being all blocked up &c pick up some sprint film developer and use that.

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Honestly, i'm really not too sure what this means, so i wasnt worried about it. But now that you mention it, i'm paranoid and will spend the next 8 hours reading about it

I'm no pro. I probably will never be a pro. I just like to "create" things, and i like to feel a sense of ownership over the things i've "created." My coffee table might not be the best coffee table in the world, but i built it, so my wife and i love it way more than something we could buy at the store. We've been in our "new house" for over a year now and have absoutely nothing on the walls. I'm sure we'll appreciate some photographs i've taken and developed more than we'd appreciate a crappy print we bought from Bed Bath and Beyond.

Craig75 said:

Sounds like you had your camera set up right -im assuming aperture was maxed out and shutter at 1/3oth or something around there - if it was night shooting.

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Thats a pretty big assumption Yeah - i was mostly shooting wide open (f 1.8) with a shutter speed of 1/60 (i probably read somewhere that you weren't supposed to go lower without a tripod)



Last night i mixed up the D-76 and all my other chemicals. (I read SOMEWHERE that you're supposed to let D-76 sit for a day or so before using?) and tonight i'll give it a shot!

Eggvillan said:

m not 100% clear on how to open the canister - looks like a regular beer bottle opener will work?

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Yup. A bottle opener works fine. I use one from a pen knife as it gets good purchase on the lip of the canister. I have a dedicated film opener but i prefer the bottle opener.

Don't forget to put scissors in the dark bag

One litttke tip, if you trim the corners of the film before loading it should go onto the reel better. Sometimes the sharp corners get a little stuck along the way. A chamfer helps.

You asked a bit ago whether D-76 can be reused. While there is a technique for reuse (technically "replenishment"), it's generally used once and then discarded ("one shot"). The processing times in the Kodak data sheet assume full strength; so if you mixed a "1 gallon" packet of D-76, you would use it just as you mixed it.

You mentioned that you're using a Paterson tank and that you've tried loading the reels but not much more than that. So a few things to keep in mind. The tank is only lightproof when the center core for the reels is used. Plastic reels are virtually impossible to load when they are wet or very damp, so dry thoroughly between uses. Don't cut the film off it's cassette until the reel is almost completely loaded; than way if you run into issues, you can rewind the film into it's lightproof cassette. A beer bottle opener will work to open the cassette (and has the added advantage of providing a beer to drink) but best to cut off the film once on the reel - at least for now.

Times (in the data sheet) are typically given for 68 deg and higher. By in large, any temp is ok if you adjust the development time accordingly (the chemical reaction that develops the film works faster at higher temps). In the summer, some people have difficulty getting their solution down to 68 deg. Most of us don't worry about the trying the keep the temp steady during the 10 +/- minutes of developing (for b/w film) unless the ambient temp when your developing is very hot or cold. Although you have to be careful if using a metal tank and you hold it in your hand the whole time.

Something to keep in mind after you get usable negatives (and you will). These are night shots, but if the developed negatives are further processed automatically, they will not look like night shots. So come back after the negs are developed and start another discussion about making night shots look like night shots.

Eggvillan said:

Thats a pretty big assumption Yeah - i was mostly shooting wide open (f 1.8) with a shutter speed of 1/60 (i probably read somewhere that you weren't supposed to go lower without a tripod)

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Well you got the max light into your camera you could while minimising camera shake so you gave yourself the best chance possible so hit a roll with the microphen you have and see what happens would be my advice. Play around with the scans you get back - see what you can make of them. The hit another roll with what you learned.

mgb74 said:

The tank is only lightproof when the center core for the reels is used.

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in other words, you mean that i need to actually put the reels on their "post" thingie, and not just let them flop around in there? (do people actually do that?)

mgb74 said:

These are night shots, but if the developed negatives are further processed automatically, they will not look like night shots.

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I lost you here. As i understand it, i'm not really allowed to ask about any digitial stuff here? I dont have an enlarger (nor am i ready to throw down the $300+ necessary to get one), so i was planning on having my local lab scan the rolls (because its cheap) and then have the lab make any prints i decide to get. While making the prints myself with an enlarger sounds awesome, I dont know if its practical at this point (no space for a darkroom, no enlarger, etc.) By "further processed automatically," are you referring to the scans i'll get back from the lab?

Craig75 said:

Play around with the scans you get back - see what you can make of them.

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As i understand it, i'm not really allowed to ask about any digital stuff here? Moreover, i dont own a copy of PS or any digital editing software.... so i guess i'll save any such relevant questions for somewhere else