I guess I need a densitometer

mark · Dec 6, 2020

I will be making digital negatives for carbon printing. Maybe for ziatype but haven’t made that decision yet.

no idea what to buy (used) and no idea how to even begin looking through threads. I have an Epson p800 and based on what I’ve read it is probably not a good idea to continually switch out the color inks with black inks so I will be making colorized digital negatives. I think I said that right.

any advice on which densitometer to look for (used) will be greatly appreciated

nmp · Dec 6, 2020

mark said:
I will be making digital negatives for carbon printing. Maybe for ziatype but haven’t made that decision yet.

no idea what to buy (used) and no idea how to even begin looking through threads. I have an Epson p800 and based on what I’ve read it is probably not a good idea to continually switch out the color inks with black inks so I will be making colorized digital negatives. I think I said that right.

any advice on which densitometer to look for (used) will be greatly appreciated

I am not sure you have to have a densitometer to get started on making digital negatives,. A scanner and many computational methods, some free and some not, like ChartThrob, Peter Mrhar's EDN or even a simple manual number-crunching can do a pretty good job.

As per the Epson p800, there is no switching involved between black and white and color printing. As a matter of fact there is use of some color inks even for black and white printing (in ABW mode) to get a neutral tone - as carbon inks by themselves are slightly warm. Now there is switching of the matte (MK) and glossy (PK) blacks depending on whether a matte paper or a glossy paper is specified as the two inks use the same head. But as long as you are using one type of black ink (most transparencies recommend using the PK) there won't be any switching involved. The main reason to make colorized negative though is when the negative printed in black and white does not have adequate UV opacity to effectively get paper white (or close) for the 0% step. It turns out that the greatest UV opacity is with a color other than black and white (usually in the green zone but will vary from printer to printer depending on the particular set of inks.)

:Niranjan.

mark · Dec 6, 2020

nmp said:
I am not sure you have to have a densitometer to get started on making digital negatives,. A scanner and many computational methods, some free and some not, like ChartThrob, Peter Mrhar's EDN or even a simple manual number-crunching can do a pretty good job.

As per the Epson p800, there is no switching involved between black and white and color printing. As a matter of fact there is use of some color inks even for black and white printing (in ABW mode) to get a neutral tone - as carbon inks by themselves are slightly warm. Now there is switching of the matte (MK) and glossy (PK) blacks depending on whether a matte paper or a glossy paper is specified as the two inks use the same head. But as long as you are using one type of black ink (most transparencies recommend using the PK) there won't be any switching involved. The main reason to make colorized negative though is when the negative printed in black and white does not have adequate UV opacity to effectively get paper white (or close) for the 0% step. It turns out that the greatest UV opacity is with a color other than black and white (usually in the green zone but will vary from printer to printer depending on the particular set of inks.)

:Niranjan.

Should have pointed out I don’t have a scanner yet.

fgorga · Dec 6, 2020

I have been making digital negatives for at least fifteen years and have never used a densitometer or a scanner... just a step wedge and my eye. YMMV as they say.

I also make my negative using Epson OEM inks (currently with a P800) and have never found a need to use anything else even though I also run a printer with Piezography warm neutral inks.

Dan Burkholder published an article titled "The Modern Digital Negative" in the July/August 2008 issue of PHOTO Techniques in which he describes his approach to making negatives using color inks. You might want to track down a copy of this article.

I have tried this method but most of my negatives are made using Epson's ABW mode. My feeling is that the current generation of Epson inks provides more than adequate opacity in the UV for most alternative processes.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 6, 2020

I've been making carbon transfer prints for 12 years. I've never used a densitometre to make digital negatives, but I do use one to cater in-camera begs for the process. These negatives are then sometimes scanned to create a digital negative. Curves are determined via Chartthrob, and Photoshop, then printed using QTR.

revdoc · Dec 6, 2020

You don't need a densitometer or a special scanner. I use a very cheap HP all-in-one for printing negs and scanning test strips. Using a dropper tool in an image editor lets me do all the analysis I need for linearisation.

Since you mentioned carbon: I started that recently, too, and I can now make okay prints, which proves that an idiot can get it working. The key for me was using EDN to get the optimal blocking colours for my printer. That step alone got me 90% of the way there.

Also, sign up to Sandy King's carbon mailing list, if you haven't already.

mark · Dec 7, 2020

I was under the impression, based on what I had been told here in the past, that without a densitometer the whole digital negative process was not going to work. King's book on carbon printing does stuff with densitometers if you want get a consistent curve. This is what I want. I want to do the testing. Create a carbon curve. Not have to worry about it again until I have too, or I start a new process.

I am a member of Sandy's mailing list and find it pretty frustrating as a beginner.

Andrew O'Neill said:
I've been making carbon transfer prints for 12 years. I've never used a densitometre to make digital negatives, but I do use one to cater in-camera begs for the process. These negatives are then sometimes scanned to create a digital negative. Curves are determined via Chartthrob, and Photoshop, then printed using QTR.

Would you mind telling me how you did this or point me to the a description. I'm not above doing the work or searching out answers, just sometimes I don't know where to start.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 7, 2020

mark said:
I was under the impression, based on what I had been told here in the past, that without a densitometer the whole digital negative process was not going to work. King's book on carbon printing does stuff with densitometers if you want get a consistent curve. This is what I want. I want to do the testing. Create a carbon curve. Not have to worry about it again until I have too, or I start a new process.

I am a member of Sandy's mailing list and find it pretty frustrating as a beginner.

Would you mind telling me how you did this or point me to the a description. I'm not above doing the work or searching out answers, just sometimes I don't know where to start.

Are you using QTR?

mark · Dec 7, 2020

revdoc said:
You don't need a densitometer or a special scanner. I use a very cheap HP all-in-one for printing negs and scanning test strips. Using a dropper tool in an image editor lets me do all the analysis I need for linearisation.

Since you mentioned carbon: I started that recently, too, and I can now make okay prints, which proves that an idiot can get it working. The key for me was using EDN to get the optimal blocking colours for my printer. That step alone got me 90% of the way there.

Also, sign up to Sandy King's carbon mailing list, if you haven't already.

I am a member of the mailing group but the inability to search or organize is really frustrating when I need to find something.

mark · Dec 7, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
Are you using QTR?

I own it. That is as far as I have gotten.

jim10219 · Dec 7, 2020

Buy a scanner. Skip the densitometer. I had two densitometers at one time. One was a X-rite 301. I sold them because the scanner worked better (perhaps not as accurate, but definitely more useful and still more than accurate enough for practical use). With the scanner and the eyedropper tool in Photoshop, I could not only take fairly accurate measurements, but I had a way to store all of that data for future use (like when you suspicion that a paper or chemical has changed, but you're not sure if it's just the aging of your old test print). Plus they're much cheaper, easier to use, and serve many uses (you'll probably want one anyway, even if you had a densitometer, same with Photoshop). You can do all of the same stuff with a scanner that you can with a good densitometer. You can even create curves with one, a process I actually find easier and quicker with a scanner and PS.

The only time I still wish I had my densitometers is when I'm developing film negatives. It's nice to have something with me in the darkroom to check my negatives without having to move to my office with my computer. But those things were so expensive, and in the end, I decided it wasn't worth the money to keep them just for that minor inconvenience.

I think the reason that you'll see so many people recommend using them is because they're older and are probably a bit technologically averse. So for them, it's just easier to keep doing things the way they've always done them, than to learn a new technology. But if you're starting out from scratch either way, might as well start off with newer stuff that's easier to learn.

Andrew O'Neill · Dec 7, 2020

mark said:
I own it. That is as far as I have gotten.

I've never linearised a negative. I've only ever produced a curve for the process, and set the inks in QTR... but you can linearise with a scanner. Have you printed an ink separation test page in QTR yet? You could follow this tutorial: https://www.quadtonerip.com/User Guide.pdf

mark · Dec 7, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
I've never linearised a negative. I've only ever produced a curve for the process, and set the inks in QTR... but you can linearise with a scanner. Have you printed an ink separation test page in QTR yet? You could follow this tutorial: https://www.quadtonerip.com/User Guide.pdf

Thanks for the guide book. I guess I don't have a clue what linearization is because I thought is what people did to make a curve. I have a lot to learn..

nmp · Dec 7, 2020

Here is a basic tutorial for digital negatives using manual correction-curve generation:

https://www.alternativephotography.com/digital-negatives/

Dan Burkholder's original article on PhotoTech magazine is no more to be found on the web as the magazine itself went defunct a few years ago. I wish I had made a copy of it.

In any case, I would suggest to do a simple approach first to get a feel for the process using a scanner (I think you can use a digital camera with a copy stand too if you don't have a scanner but I have never tried it) and Photoshop. The Epson p800 is a great printer with high density black inks so I doubt it will fall short in the getting adequate UV opacity using their own printer driver. You might not even need to do a colorized negative. QTR is great but it is not for a beginner and has its own learning curve. It could always be incorporated later if the first iteration somehow is lacking.

Good luck!

:Niranjan.

mark · Dec 7, 2020

nmp said:
Here is a basic tutorial for digital negatives using manual correction-curve generation:

https://www.alternativephotography.com/digital-negatives/

Dan Burkholder's original article on PhotoTech magazine is no more to be found on the web as the magazine itself went defunct a few years ago. I wish I had made a copy of it.

In any case, I would suggest to do a simple approach first to get a feel for the process using a scanner (I think you can use a digital camera with a copy stand too if you don't have a scanner but I have never tried it) and Photoshop. The Epson p800 is a great printer with high density black inks so I doubt it will fall short in the getting adequate UV opacity using their own printer driver. You might not even need to do a colorized negative. QTR is great but it is not for a beginner and has its own learning curve. It could always be incorporated later if the first iteration somehow is lacking.

Good luck!

:Niranjan.

Shockingly, I have, somewhere in this house or storage unit, a copy of dan burkholder's first printing of his book on digital negatives. I also followed the steps to get a couple image setter negs made and then life set in. I neither know where those negs are, or where the book might be. When I came back to reality people were trashing on Dan's methods and I decided I like film better than digital, but my dreams of building a darkroom quickly vanashed and long story short here I am. Quadtone will be the direction I go.

I've contemplated a scanner. The ones capable of scanning LF negatives are pretty pricey.

nerologic · Jun 1, 2021

I profiled my V750 against an X-rite 301 and find the scanner has a slope that’s consistently 10% steeper than the X-rite. Had other people scan steps wedges and compare to mine and they’re all consistent. And I have 3 densitometers that all agree. So as a man of science, I can confirm a film scanner is plenty good.

nerologic · Jun 1, 2021

nerologic said:
I profiled my V750 against an X-rite 301 and find the scanner has a slope that’s consistently 10% steeper than the X-rite. Had other people scan steps wedges and compare to mine and they’re all consistent. And I have 3 densitometers that all agree. So as a man of science, I can confirm a film scanner is plenty good.

As long as you use the same one all the time, to keep any errors constant. Just decide on a tool and stick with it.

I guess I need a densitometer

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