I don't have kids but..

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 20, 2015

Is this an over-reaction by parents in an age of overly coddled kids? Or is this treatment justified?http://petapixel.com/2015/07/20/pho...ures-of-kids-gets-pool-ban-and-death-threats/

Rick A · Jul 20, 2015

What would you expect from people who live in their "selfie" world and never interact with real people, they have forgotten to ask what's up, and immediately jump to conclusions. After all, everything they get fed from their micro world tells them people like this are creeps, no matter the reality.

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 20, 2015

While I definitely see a load of over-reaction here I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can think it's a good idea to take photos of other people's children through a window even if (especially if?) it's a public pool on the other side. Whatever your intentions how can you not be surprised by people's reactions? That said it's a very gray area indeed. I do not see that he did anything illegal. However, as a father of a 4 year old daughter if I saw anyone taking a photo of my kid this way my first reaction would be a stern: "Excuse me, but WTF are you doing?"

Jim17x · Jul 20, 2015

I guess i must be one of those "crazy" people. If someone was photographing my grand daughters while swimming i would kindly ask him to stop and delete any photos that he has of them and if he refused, he would kindly be "knocked out" and his camera would never be seen again. I would also be nice and call the ambulance for him.

Prof_Pixel · Jul 20, 2015

People that live in small towns expect more privacy than people in very large towns.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 20, 2015

I agree with you

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
However, as a father of a 4 year old daughter if I saw anyone taking a photo of my kid this way my first reaction would be a stern: "Excuse me, but WTF are you doing?"

Tell me if I'm off base here, but here in the America, some if not most won't confront people of suspicious behavior. We're too quick to call the cops, a lawyer or surreptitious attack someone on line. I think there's too much of a culture of complaining instead of direct action to find out what's going on. We have a culture of "Someone else is going to handle it". We just pick up the phone.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Jul 20, 2015

If you look like you are sneaking around, people will assume you are up to no good. If you are forthright, people will assume that you're a decent person.

The way I do it (which is hopefully the right way) is to walk up to the parents with your medium format camera highly visible and ask to make a photograph of their child. Always have a business card or a small book of portraits to show. People rarely say no. I've done this in many small towns as well, so it's not a "big city vs. small town" thing as the photographer mentioned, it's about having the sense to treat people with respect and to restrain yourself if there are any potentially delicate issues involved, such as kids in swimsuits.

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 20, 2015

Prof_Pixel said:
People that live in small towns expect more privacy than people in very large towns.

I live in the San Francisco area. A big city/urban environment. Am I wrong not to expect a photographer to photograph my 4-year old daughter in her swimsuit? I'm not going to go over the top and say no cameras at the pool and if my daughter is in some blurry background or part of a group photo I have no issue but if you're using a telephoto and specifically photographing or isolating her in your photography I'm going to have issue with it.

MartinCrabtree · Jul 20, 2015

100 years of protecting the stupid has diluted the gene pool to the point of no return. And that doesn't even consider the contribution of TV.

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 20, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
Tell me if I'm off base here, but here in the America, some if not most won't confront people of suspicious behavior. We're too quick to call the cops, a lawyer or surreptitious attack someone on line. I think there's too much of a culture of complaining instead of direct action to find out what's going on. We have a culture of "Someone else is going to handle it". We just pick up the phone.

Yeah you're probably right. If someone was walking around openly and taking group or environmental photos of the pools and the people I see no issue. If he's using a telephoto and obviously taking isolated photos of my daughter he and I are going to have a discussion. Or even she and I if its a woman photographer.

blansky · Jul 20, 2015

Yeah, I agree, a lot of this is about demeanor. But in this day and age with helicopter parents, all the so called child porn, so called abductions and too much TV scaring people I'd kind of expect it.

I photograph a lot of kids, and would never do it anymore without a parent in the room, or asking people first. Otherwise you're just asking for trouble.

Women photographers on the other hand, have a lot easier time with this.

Just the way it is. Life goes on.

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 20, 2015

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
If you look like you are sneaking around, people will assume you are up to no good. If you are forthright, people will assume that you're a decent person.

The way I do it (which is hopefully the right way) is to walk up to the parents with your medium format camera highly visible and ask to make a photograph of their child. Always have a business card or a small book of portraits to show. People rarely say no. I've done this in many small towns as well, so it's not a "big city vs. small town" thing as the photographer mentioned, it's about having the sense to treat people with respect and to restrain yourself if there are any potentially delicate issues involved, such as kids in swimsuits.

And that's how I handle it too. Never an issue and I actually meet some really nice people and share some great photography too.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 20, 2015

Ha ha!

MartinCrabtree said:
100 years of protecting the stupid has diluted the gene pool to the point of no return. And that doesn't even consider the contribution of TV.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icmRCixQrx8

GRHazelton · Jul 20, 2015

Jim17x said:
I guess i must be one of those "crazy" people. If someone was photographing my grand daughters while swimming i would kindly ask him to stop and delete any photos that he has of them and if he refused, he would kindly be "knocked out" and his camera would never be seen again. I would also be nice and call the ambulance for him.

And you would be arrested for assault and theft. Better read up on photography in public places. This http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf is a good summary. I try to have a copy with me when I'm out shooting. And no, I don't take pictures of little kids swimming, except my grandkids.

BrianShaw · Jul 20, 2015

This is all I needed/wanted to know: "I understand that I looked like a creep, hes quoted as saying."

Ko.Fe. · Jul 20, 2015

I have kids, but I don't think it is about kids only.
Where I'm it is normal to not take pictures of the public pool attendants in "creep" style like this reported in provided article did.
Dishonest and creepy way of doing it. Get in, ask if it is allowed, if allowed get close for best possible pictures.
So, for community pools in our town here is no photography on regular days, hours. And I'm fine with it.
If I need pictures of swimmers plenty of natural places where it isn't prohibited.
I went to take pictures of kids on bike event this year and in two previous years. Volunteered for organizers. As long as parents knew it is going to be photographed "officially" they don't have problems with it. Within three years of me doing it, I have just a very few kids with marks for no pictures.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jul 20, 2015

Does anybody think that just taking pictures surreptitious of kids anywhere including pools is OK as long as there's no direction or contact of the photographer? So let's say photographer's intent is less than pure, does allowing such photography of your children wrong? I do draw the line if there's touching or creepy direction of subject. I do think predatory pediphiles are the worst and should be kept away from children.

pbromaghin · Jul 20, 2015

I grew up in a much smaller town near Fargo. Pretty much any kind of weirdness is frowned upon. I have a lot of trouble photographing anybody I don't know, and find street photography simply impossible. It feels creepy. What he's doing in that photo is just plain stupid anywhere in that area. He's lucky he didn't get beat up.

Springsteen could have been thinking of them when he wrote, "Do what you like, but don't do it here."

pdeeh · Jul 20, 2015

blansky said:
all the so called child porn,

"so called" child porn?

blansky · Jul 20, 2015

pdeeh said:
"so called" child porn?

Bath tub pictures, nudie pics of childhood innocence, that kind of stuff.

Any child nudity or near nudity can now be called kiddie porn regardless of the intent of the person taking the picture.

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 20, 2015

GRHazelton said:
And you would be arrested for assault and theft. Better read up on photography in public places.

Yeah, perhaps. Maybe.

This guy was arrested too, but not charged:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/06/2...-killing-of-man-molesting-his-daughter-5.html

Further along and extreme in comparison but in the same direction. If I thought someone was getting some sexual thrill from photographing my 4-year old daughter in a swimsuit the blood starts to boil.

As he said above "...if he refused". I can just see how that would all play out:

"So, he took photos of your grandchildren in swimsuits eh? And refused to delete them when you asked? And you punched him and smashed his camera? Hmmm, are you sure he didn't trip and fall and damage his camera and face at the same time?? Hmm?"

MattKing · Jul 20, 2015

What I find sad is how so much of the innocent joy of photographing children without any bad intent has been removed from our lives.

Creepiness should be prevented, but the normal appreciation of children should be encouraged.

pdeeh · Jul 20, 2015

Mainecoonmaniac said:
. I do think predatory pediphiles are the worst and should be kept away from children.

It's hard to disagree (although I think you mean p[a]edophiles), but let's not forget that the place children are most in danger of abuse of any sort (including sexual abuse) is in the family home, at the hands of family members.

This unfortunately is something media and politicians find it almost impossible to acknowledge, and therefore the image of the single middle-aged man who is a secret predator on children is promulgated - it is, after all, easier to do so than admit to ourselves that fathers, brothers, uncles (and mothers, sisters, aunts) can be responsible.

Indeed, the last time I made this point at APUG (and it is one based in a decade's worth of experience in working with and for the victims of childhood sexual abuse) it was dismissed as absurd. However, the facts are as they are - at least in the UK, but I would be very surprised indeed if it were not also true in the US ....

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 20, 2015

MattKing said:
What I find sad is how so much of the innocent joy of photographing children without any bad intent has been removed from our lives.

Creepiness should be prevented, but the normal appreciation of children should be encouraged.

It hasn't been. See examples above where someone else and I outline where we've done it just fine. Key is getting permission and not being a creep.

GRHazelton · Jul 20, 2015

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
Yeah, perhaps. Maybe.

This guy was arrested too, but not charged:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/06/2...-killing-of-man-molesting-his-daughter-5.html

Further along and extreme in comparison but in the same direction. If I thought someone was getting some sexual thrill from photographing my 4-year old daughter in a swimsuit the blood starts to boil.

As he said above "...if he refused". I can just see how that would all play out:

"So, he took photos of your grandchildren in swimsuits eh? And refused to delete them when you asked? And you punched him and smashed his camera? Hmmm, are you sure he didn't trip and fall and damage his camera and face at the same time?? Hmm?"

In the NYTimes link you posted the father found his daughter BEING RAPED. This is a far cry from finding someone taking pictures of your child, don't you agree? I really don't think the two can be equated or even compared. Assaulting the photographer would be overreacting, don't you think?

Oh, BTW, I have a daughter, now 37, and three granddaughters, 4, 5, and 7.

I don't have kids but..

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