I added a little color to my X-tol, I skipped the pre-wash...

BSP · Feb 24, 2020

...on a 120-roll of Foma Classic 100

and now my replenishable X-tol has turned from gray to green

Should I dump the X-tol and mix up a new batch or just soldier on?

(I suspect the latter but I thought I'd check here to be sure)

Thanks,

Bill
(BSP)

Rick A · Feb 24, 2020

No issue, it'll clear up in about a day. It's the AH dye dissolved by the developer and causes no harm.

BSP · Feb 24, 2020

Rick A said:
No issue, it'll clear up in about a day. It's the AH dye dissolved by the developer and causes no harm.

Thanks Rick.

Ian Grant · Feb 24, 2020

I never use a pre-wsh and used Fomapan films with replenished Xtol for some time.

As Rick saya nothing to worry about.

Ian

removed account4 · Feb 24, 2020

hi bsp

kodak always said no prewash when using xtol...
john

BSP · Feb 24, 2020

jnantz said:
hi bsp

kodak always said no prewash when using xtol...
john

Thanks for chiming in John,

Which instruction I was following with 35mm film and "accidently" did so with my first 120-film in X-tol too.
And the negatives look really good. I am loving X-tol replenished.

Regards,
Bill

BSP · Feb 24, 2020

Ian Grant said:
I never use a pre-wsh and used Fomapan films with replenished Xtol for some time.

As Rick saya nothing to worry about.

Ian

Thanks man!

Ian C · Feb 24, 2020

This is all I could find regarding XTOL and soaking in water prior to development in the Kodak-Alaris PDF J=109, page 3, left column:

“Agitating Sheet Film in Trays
Presoaking sheets in water yields more even development, especially when multiple sheets of film are processed together. Even a single sheet should be presoaked so that the rate of development will be the same as multiple sheets processed together.”

I didn’t see any comments for or against pre-soaking roll films in this Kodak document. If presoaking does harm, it doesn’t mention it. PHOTOENGINEER Ron Mowrey consistently recommended presoaking films in APUG posted discussions, and with me privately.

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/J-109_Feb_2018.pdf

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Feb 24, 2020

With replenished developers you face the risk of progressively diluting the developer if you pre-soak your film. Not sure the replenishment rules factor in the water that makes it way into the developer as a consequence of pre-soak.

removed account4 · Feb 24, 2020

Ian C said:
This is all I could find regarding XTOL and soaking in water prior to development in the Kodak-Alaris PDF J=109, page 3, left column:

“Agitating Sheet Film in Trays
Presoaking sheets in water yields more even development, especially when multiple sheets of film are processed together. Even a single sheet should be presoaked so that the rate of development will be the same as multiple sheets processed together.”

I didn’t see any comments for or against pre-soaking roll films in this Kodak document. If presoaking does harm, it doesn’t mention it. PHOTOENGINEER Ron Mowrey consistently recommended presoaking films in APUG posted discussions, and with me privately.

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/J-109_Feb_2018.pdf

in that case i am glad to be corrected !

sorry for seemingly sending you down the garden path BSP. the no pre-wet recommendation i was working off of was
20 years old and older .. they *used to* say just go directly into the developer without a pre wet.
i'm glad Ian C is on the job, the last thing i want to do is be a the chairman of alternative facts !
thanks Ian
john

BSP · Feb 24, 2020

Hmmmm.........

Sal Santamaura · Feb 24, 2020

Between Kodak's suggested times for films developed in XTOL having been established without a prewash (probably just to save time when preparing the original J-109's 24 pages of data for dozens of films, each with dilutions from 1+0 through 1+3) and Jobo's inclusion of "no prewash with XTOL" in its manuals, this confusion has been resurrected and reinforced for decades. The real answer can be found here:

https://www.largeformatphotography....oak-What-gives&p=815973&viewfull=1#post815973

Bottom line: prewash if you like, don't prewash if you don't like. Just be consistent after you've established your time/temperature/agitation routine.

BSP · Feb 24, 2020

Wow, that is a lot of infornation on this subject!

From all of this, is it then safe to conclude that anti-halation dye that does not get washed away with a pre-wash, DOES NOT polllute the XTOL-developer in any way?

Apart from the colour that is.

Bill

Vaughn · Feb 24, 2020

Yes, it is safe to conclude that. Otherwise, I believe a pre-wash would be manatory in all film instructions.

Maris · Feb 24, 2020

Pre-washing film is pretty well essential with replenished developer systems.
My replenished Xtol stock bottle of 1.6 litres has been working since 2007 and has had hundreds of films through it. If I didn't pre-wash film this developer might now be almost black and loaded with anti-halation dye, acutance dye, spectral sensitisation dye, and speed trimming dye.

Sirius Glass · Feb 25, 2020

Keep it, it is good. Besides it adds color to your work.
The only film that Kodak [and Jobo] warns against prewashing with XTOL it Tri-X.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 25, 2020

Rick A said:
No issue, it'll clear up in about a day. It's the AH dye dissolved by the developer and causes no harm.

+1

Sal Santamaura · Feb 25, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
...The only film that Kodak [and Jobo] warns against prewashing with XTOL it Tri-X.

I never heard that before. What documents can one find those warnings in?

Ian Grant · Feb 25, 2020

Maris said:
Pre-washing film is pretty well essential with replenished developer systems.
My replenished Xtol stock bottle of 1.6 litres has been working since 2007 and has had hundreds of films through it. If I didn't pre-wash film this developer might now be almost black and loaded with anti-halation dye, acutance dye, spectral sensitisation dye, and speed trimming dye.

It's definitely not essential with the exception of rotary processors/

Pre-washing came into use for two slightly different reason. First was warming a dveloping tank for colour processing so there wasn't a drop in temperature when the first developer was added, the second was to hel with evenness of processing in initially colour print drums (rotary) and then also rotary film processing tanks.

The replenishment rate with Xtol is quite high only partially to mitigae the issues you mention and far more to keep th iodide level under control with T-grain and similar films.

Ian

Sirius Glass · Feb 26, 2020

Sal Santamaura said:
I never heard that before. What documents can one find those warnings in?

The Rotary Processor Manual, John Tinsley, late confirmed by Kodak.

Sal Santamaura · Feb 26, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
The Rotary Processor Manual, John Tinsley, late confirmed by Kodak.

Please post the book excerpt that admonishes against prewashing TRI-X. Which TRI-X does this refer to, 400TX, 320TXP or both? Rolls, sheets or both? What reason does Tinsley give / problem with prewashing does he describe? How did Kodak confirm it?

I remain suspicious that this is anything more than another instance of the seemingly perpetual misunderstanding described in post #12.

Sirius Glass · Feb 26, 2020

Sal Santamaura said:
Please post the book excerpt that admonishes against prewashing TRI-X. Which TRI-X does this refer to, 400TX, 320TXP or both? Rolls, sheets or both? What reason does Tinsley give / problem with prewashing does he describe? How did Kodak confirm it?

I remain suspicious that this is anything more than another instance of the seemingly perpetual misunderstanding described in post #12.

I will provide the page number, ... when I get back home. It is for Tri-X in XTOL only.

Scott J. · Feb 27, 2020

Ian C said:
This is all I could find regarding XTOL and soaking in water prior to development in the Kodak-Alaris PDF J=109, page 3, left column:

“Agitating Sheet Film in Trays
Presoaking sheets in water yields more even development, especially when multiple sheets of film are processed together. Even a single sheet should be presoaked so that the rate of development will be the same as multiple sheets processed together.”

I didn’t see any comments for or against pre-soaking roll films in this Kodak document. If presoaking does harm, it doesn’t mention it. PHOTOENGINEER Ron Mowrey consistently recommended presoaking films in APUG posted discussions, and with me privately.

https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/uat/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/J-109_Feb_2018.pdf

I suspect the reason for the above suggestion from Kodak to presoak sheet films developed in trays has to do with the concern that adding developer to a dry tray can result in the film floating on top of the developer for the first few seconds, which results in uneven developer-film contact during a crucial time in the development period. By pre-wetting the film with a water soak, the film is likely to be stuck to the bottom of the tray (due to surface tension) when the developer is added to the tray, and hence, the developer should cover the entire film at the same time. The film being wet also increases the chance that the developer will more evenly diffuse into the emulsion.

I only mention the above because I think there's a tendency to assume that pre-wetting is suggested for reasons of chemistry (where the pre-soak is assumed to aid the chemical reaction aspect of development), when often times, pre-wetting has more to do with mitigating "mechanical" problems that arise as a consequence of surface tension.

Adrian Bacon · Feb 27, 2020

BSP said:
...on a 120-roll of Foma Classic 100

and now my replenishable X-tol has turned from gray to green

Should I dump the X-tol and mix up a new batch or just soldier on?

(I suspect the latter but I thought I'd check here to be sure)

Thanks,

Bill
(BSP)

just soldier on. It’ll go away. I never pre wet with my replenished xtol because it dilutes your working solution over time and you have to replenish at a higher rate to maintain activity.

I added a little color to my X-tol, I skipped the pre-wash...

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