Hypo and HCA in Selenium Toning Workflow

[Dan Rainer]

I work with MGRC paper and like using selenium toner for a deepened blacks and removal of green cast. My following workflow looks like this:

Development
Ansco 130: 1.5 mins
Acid Stop: 0.5 mins
Ilford Rapid Fixer: 2 mins
Rinse: 2-3 mins
Hang to dry.

Toning
Presoak: 2-3 mins
Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner diluted w/ distilled water (1:3, 1:9, 1:19*): 3-5 mins
Water Holding Tray: 1-3 minutes
Rinse: 5 mins
Hang to dry.

*dilution per paper and desired color shift

Should I be using a straight hypo presoak before toning and HCA afterwards?
If I were to switch to a running water stop bath and an alkaline fix like TF4, would that still be necessary?

 

[Alan9940]

Frankly, I'm surprised you don't get stains using your toning procedure but I'd recommend using a plain hypo bath for several minutes before going into the toning tray. And, since KRST contains fixer I'd either use HCA per instructions or make sure you're giving a full wash after the toning. But, please take my advice with a grain of salt as I use only fiber paper. Hopefully, folks with toning of RC paper will jump in on this thread.

 

[Chuck1]

I didn't think rc paper toned well, I've only used fb

 

[spijker]

I used to print on MGIV RC paper and recently finished some leftovers. I followed the same procedure as Dan Rainer using Ilford dev/stop/fix and Kodak selenium toner. I would sometimes rinse after the fix for about 1 minute and then go to the selenium toner. It all worked well and the prints still look good after 15+ years. You don't need HCA with RC paper.

Selenium toning does get you deeper blacks on Ilford RC paper. It is well noticable. If there is a greenish tone, selenium toning also removes that. Just be careful that you don't get the purplish tone by toning too long or too concentrated.

 

[pentaxuser]

I used to print on MGIV RC paper and recently finished some leftovers. I followed the same procedure as Dan Rainer using Ilford dev/stop/fix and Kodak selenium toner. I would sometimes rinse after the fix for about 1 minute and then go to the selenium toner. It all worked well and the prints still look good after 15+ years. You don't need HCA with RC paper.

Yes Ilford even has a video on this by way of promoting its own Selenium toner and it follows the same procedure as Dan

pentaxuser

 

[MattKing]

Which MGRC paper - the current version, which is sometimes referred to as MGV RC, or the predecessor, MGIV RC.
If the older version, it is indeed rather resistant to Selenium toner, although if you persevere, the effects of the toner do start to show.
And it really is unnecessary to use HCA.
Just as it is unnecessary to use a water stop with neutral fixer like TF4, which itself is sufficiently buffered to be able to handle acidic stop.

 

[Dan Rainer]

Thanks @spijker, @pentaxuser, and @MattKing for reassuring me. I've had great results with various selenium dilutions on Ilford Cooltone RC, Warmtone RC, MGV RC and Arista RC in the past.

I didn't think rc paper toned well, I've only used fb

This is where my confusion came from. FB does tone much more easily than RC, so a lot of books and articles on toning just assume you're using FB—and give instructions accordingly.

 

[MattKing]

As I understand it, one of the major design goals for Ilford MGIV RC was to provide a paper that would give consistent and similar results for a wide variety of users, in a wide variety of working environments, using a wide variety of common developers.
In other words, a paper well suited to amateur users, educational users, commercial users needing decent volumes of throughput - in essence those who need a versatile general purpose paper.
One consequence of those design goals was that the MGIV RC paper is/was highly resistant to image tone variation without the involvement of strong toning solutions.
As I understand it, when Harman was designing the new, current Ilford Classic MG RC referred erroneously to as "MGV RC" - besides the major goals of improving the linearity of the paper's response to filtration change, the engineers also improved the the paper's susceptibility to more subtle toning approaches.

 

[mshchem]

Just follow Ilford's recommended procedures

 

[koraks]

I didn't think rc paper toned well, I've only used fb

It does. Papers differ in how they tone, i.e. how dramatic of a tone shift they show, but they all tone. It's a misunderstanding that RC would somehow not tone.

Should I be using a straight hypo presoak before toning and HCA afterwards?

Your process looks fine to me.

Frankly, I'm surprised you don't get stains using your toning procedure

I'm not; I don't see why this would result in stains. It looks perfectly OK.

 

[pentaxuser]

Frankly, I'm surprised you don't get stains using your toning procedure but I'd recommend using a plain hypo bath for several minutes before going into the toning tray. And, since KRST contains fixer I'd either use HCA per instructions or make sure you're giving a full wash after the toning. But, please take my advice with a grain of salt as I use only fiber paper. Hopefully, folks with toning of RC paper will jump in on this thread.

Can I ask: Have you had stains with FB paper using Dan's procedure and is so, what was it that you did not do or use that you then used later and the stains disappeared?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[Doremus Scudder]

If you're not getting stains, then no worries. I might wash a bit more thoroughly before hanging the prints to dry, though, just to be sure. It's only a few more minutes.

By "straight hypo presoak" I assume you mean sodium thiosulfate, aka fixer. Again, not necessary if you've fixed adequately earlier, but it certainly won't hurt and might ensure adequate fixing if you've not fixed well enough in your printing session. If you don't use a second fix, do make sure you don't overuse your fixer in your printing session; watch the throughput and stay well within limits. Underfixing can cause stains in the toner.

With FB paper, a two-bath fixing regime is advisable. I have a similar workflow to yours, but with FB paper. I do fix one in the printing session, then, the toning session consists of a water soak, fix two and then directly into the toner. That's followed by a wash-aid and then a thorough wash. For RC paper, the

You don't need Hypo Clearing Agent or similar with RC paper. With FB paper, yes, definitely.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

 

[Alan9940]

Can I ask: Have you had stains with FB paper using Dan's procedure and is so, what was it that you did not do or use that you then used later and the stains disappeared?

Thanks

pentaxuser

I don't use Dan's toning procedure. My procedure for 40+ years is:

1. Water pre-soak dry prints for a few mins
2. Transfer to tray of plain hypo fixer and agitate for about 5 mins
3. Transfer to KRST tray (usually 1:19 dilution) and tone for whatever time gives me what I want to see. I usually judge the change in tonal values and color against an untoned version of the same image.
4. Transfer the HCA tray and agitate for about 10 mins
5. Load final prints into vertical slot washer and wash for about 30 - 60 mins

I haven't seen stains in many, many years but IIRC the issue was that I wasn't fixing fully enough. The above may be over-kill, but it's worked for me with fiber paper for a long time. And, I have toned prints on fiber paper in my portfolio that are over 40 years old and they look as good today as the day I made them.