HYDROQUINONE

dr5chrome · Aug 16, 2012

Just an FYI - There has been an unknown recent radical jump in the 'wholesale' cost of Hydroqinone.

10mo ago the agent was less than 4$ a pound. In that time there has been a 250%+ increase.
Unlike other photo developing agents HQ is in many other industry applications:
Tires
Cosmetics
Flat-screen TVs
ALL photo dev solutions.

Thomas Bertilsson · Aug 16, 2012

dr5chrome said:
ALL photo dev solutions.

Except Xtol, if I remember correctly.

Photo Engineer · Aug 16, 2012

There has been either a big jump in price or a decrease in availability of many photographic chemicals in the last year. HQ is just one of them. Much of the US supply came from Texas Eastman which is probably scaling way back.

PE

Bob Carnie · Aug 16, 2012

Michael

could you post the formula for D76 without HQ?

Michael R 1974 said:
Correct. No HQ in there. XTOL is a Dimezone-Ascorbate developer. Rodinal, D23, Perceptol and other formulas don't contain HQ either. Even D76 can be altered slightly and made to work the same without HQ (Haist version). Print developers are another matter. HQ in pretty much everything.

dr5chrome · Aug 16, 2012

..Im getting the quake in Japan - but there are other big manufactures in China. Given there are other uses other than 'photo' [maybe bigger], I cant see a 250% jump as justified. If we though we have seen sticker-shock, just wait till this hits the pike. ..just me: I use 100lbs a year. dw

Photo Engineer said:
There has been either a big jump in price or a decrease in availability of many photographic chemicals in the last year. HQ is just one of them. Much of the US supply came from Texas Eastman which is probably scaling way back.

PE

Ektagraphic · Aug 16, 2012

Perhaps if Kodak makes Hydroquinone themselves, Kodak products will not see a huge jump?

Photo Engineer · Aug 16, 2012

dr5chrome said:
..Im getting the quake in Japan - but there are other big manufactures in China. Given there are other uses other than 'photo' [maybe bigger], I cant see a 250% jump as justified. If we though we have seen sticker-shock, just wait till this hits the pike. ..just me: I use 100lbs a year. dw

IIRC, Kodak spun off Texas Eastman years ago so that is no assurance.

My information comes from companies making chemicals in the US. Hypo no longer ships in tank car lots, but in carboys due to decreased demand. This goes for several other chemicals including some members of the Phenidone family. There is a thread on this here on APUB about 2 months ago.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Aug 16, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
Michael

could you post the formula for D76 without HQ?

You cannot just substitute ascorbic acid for hydroquinone. As has been stated many times on APUG the resemblence between these two chemicals is only superficial. Xtol is probably the closest ascorbic acid analog for for D-76 after all the correct adjustments to the formula have been made. Search on APUG for the formula which has been posted on more than one occasion.

There is also the Haist modification to D-76 which eliminates the hydroquinone and increases the metol content slightly. It is referred to as D-76H and is used just like D-76. Note that the name uses a captal H since there is another completely different version of D-76 referred to as D-76h.

D-76H

water (125°F) 750ml
metol 2.5g
sodium sulfite (anhydrous) 100g
borax (decahydrate) 2.0g
water to make 1 liter

The version above is used as a one shot either FS or 1+1.

Athiril · Aug 16, 2012

The price rose massively here some time ago, over a year ago iirc.

removed account4 · Aug 16, 2012

Gerald C Koch said:
You cannot just substitute ascorbic acid for hydroquinone. As has been stated many times on APUG the resemblence between these two chemicals is only superficial. Xtol is probably the closest ascorbic acid analog for for D-76 after all the correct adjustments to the formula have been made. Search on APUG for the formula which has been posted on more than one occasion.

There is also the Haist modification to D-76 which eliminates the hydroquinone and increases the metol content slightly. It is referred to as D-76H and is used just like D-76. Note that the name uses a captal H since there is another completely different version of D-76 referred to as D-76h.

D-76H

water (125°F) 750ml
metol 2.5g
sodium sulfite (anhydrous) 100g
borax (decahydrate) 2.0g
water to make 1 liter

The version above is used as a one shot either FS or 1+1.

hi gerald

this is kind of like split d23 ( dd23 ) or one version of it,
but mixed together ..
i had heard years ago that when mixed together it was pretty much like d76 ( or one of its variants )
thanks for posting this !

john

Gerald C Koch · Aug 16, 2012

Hi Michael,

I know that you would not advocate a simple substution. I was answering Bob C's post which appearred to ask just that question. I also wanted to post D-76H as a remedy to the cost of hydroquinone. Since there is nothing to regenerate the metol as it is used up this version cannot be replenished. Looking back I was probably a bit rude to reply since Bob's question was addressed to you. My apologies.

Jerry

Gerald C Koch · Aug 16, 2012

Hi John,

I have used D-76H in the past and the results appear to be identical to those of D-76. This formula also points out that at the low pH of D-76 the main purpose of the hydroquinone is to regenerate the metol as it is consumed. This can be seen from the rather small adjustment to the metol to compnsate for the lack of developing activity from the hydroquinone.

Jerry

walbergb · Aug 17, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
There is a thread on this here on APUB about 2 months ago.

PE

APUB? PE, have you been drinking or got drinking on your mind?

Bob Carnie · Aug 17, 2012

Thank you both

Michael R 1974 said:
I was not suggesting replacing HQ with ascorbic acid in any formula. I've stated many times on here I do not believe in simple substitution formulas. Once something is changed, the entire formula needs to be looked at and possibly rebalanced, or scrapped.

Bob - the formula Gerald posted for the Haist version of D76 (D-76H) is correct. The formula is the same as D-76 except the HQ is eliminated and the Metol is increased to 2.5g. Image characteristics are said to be virtually identical. As for its capacity compared to regular D-76, I cannot say.

Keith Tapscott. · Aug 17, 2012

Bob Carnie said:
could you post the formula for D76 without HQ?

I read somewhere that DK-76b is an official Kodak formula without hydroquinone, but I could be mistaken.

http://www.digitaltruth.com/data/dk76b.php

Photo Engineer · Aug 17, 2012

walbergb said:
APUB? PE, have you been drinking or got drinking on your mind?

Drinking? Not that early. Just an error while touch typing, one that I missed.

PE

RattyMouse · Aug 17, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
Drinking? Not that early. Just an error while touch typing, one that I missed.

PE

Come on PE, we wouldnt blame you for hitting the sauce early and hard. Watching your former company sink almost daily has got to be rough. My last company was bought out by a competitor and essentially shut down. That was a brutal experience that was very hard for me to take, even though I only worked there 6 years. I can't imagine what it would have been like with 20+ years.

Photo Engineer · Aug 17, 2012

I was with EK for 32 years. And, yes I hate to see them go down, especially the way it is taking place. It is now about 8 PM, and I have not had a drop!

Well, to coffee and fruit juice count?

PE

RattyMouse · Aug 17, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
I was with EK for 32 years. And, yes I hate to see them go down, especially the way it is taking place. It is now about 8 PM, and I have not had a drop!

Well, to coffee and fruit juice count?

PE

Coffee and juice can be liquored up nicely so yes, they count.

32 years...wow. Regardless of what happens to Kodak, they cant take away what you accomplished and what your efforts gave to the photographic world.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 18, 2012

Many deviations from this original d76formula have been proposed over the years. A recent suggestion, by Haist is to justomit hydroquinone and raise metol tohope this helps 2.5 g, creating D-76H, an environmentally friendly and more stable developer,sometimes called d76H.a simple but effective alterationby someonewho probably knows best.

RalphLambrecht · Aug 18, 2012

Gerald C Koch said:
You cannot just substitute ascorbic acid for hydroquinone. .

correct!I TRIED IT AND FAILED MISERABLY,JUST AS YOU SAID. DEVELOPER FORMULATION IS A COMPLEX SUBJECT.

Ian Grant · Aug 18, 2012

RalphLambrecht said:
Many deviations from this original d76formula have been proposed over the years. A recent suggestion, by Haist is to justomit hydroquinone and raise metol tohope this helps 2.5 g, creating D-76H, an environmentally friendly and more stable developer,sometimes called d76H.a simple but effective alterationby someonewho probably knows best.

Actually D76 was published around the same time (maybe slightly after) as (there was a url link here which no longer exists) which bears a remarkable reemblance to Haist's suggested formula with no Hydroquinone, in fact it's most likely the one he allides to.

Ian

lxdude · Aug 18, 2012

Photo Engineer said:
here on APUB

This place is sort of like a pub.
Mostly friendly and jovial, lots of discussion, some disagreements, some arguments, some risque' humor, some dirty jokes, some clean jokes, some witticisms; a few who think they're funnier than they are, a few who think they're smarter than they are, some who are all talk, a know-it-all or two, an obnoxious jerk or two, a few who arrive clearly drunk; a couple of professorial types, some really smart non-professorial types, some young ones to whom it's all new, some who sit off in a corner and watch the goings on with amusement, lots of just regular folks; and through it all, the overworked, underpaid help, who try to keep a semblance of order, and the overworked, underpaid owner, who just wants to keep the fun flowing, but ends up spending most of his time keeping up the building.

Photo Engineer · Aug 18, 2012

I love the analogy to a pub. The last real pub I was in was the White Hart on Drury Lane in London.

PE

RattyMouse · Aug 18, 2012

lxdude said:
This place is sort of like a pub.
Mostly friendly and jovial, lots of discussion, some disagreements, some arguments, some risque' humor, some dirty jokes, some clean jokes, some witticisms; a few who think they're funnier than they are, a few who think they're smarter than they are, some who are all talk, a know-it-all or two, an obnoxious jerk or two, a few who arrive clearly drunk; a couple of professorial types, some really smart non-professorial types, some young ones to whom it's all new, some who sit off in a corner and watch the goings on with amusement, lots of just regular folks; and through it all, the overworked, underpaid help, who try to keep a semblance of order, and the overworked, underpaid owner, who just wants to keep the fun flowing, but ends up spending most of his time keeping up the building.

100% spot on!

HYDROQUINONE

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