Hydroquinone: the latest controlled substance?

Gerald C Koch · Oct 12, 2014

Hydroquinone is particularly toxic to fish. So it is a problem should treated sewer effluent reach streams or lakes. Standard treatment methods will not remove it. Hence the EPA also gets involved with its use. This is one reason for its replacement with ascorbic acid in developers.

desertrat · Oct 12, 2014

To the OP:

I just checked Ebay, which used to have lots of listings for photo grade hydroquionone, and there was only one listing, and it was expensive. There were several listings for it as a lab chemical, which were also expensive. Artcraft still shows it on their website for a reasonable price. I would suggest buying all you can afford, because soon it may not be available anymore, or may be prohibitively expensive.

I have some I bought ten years ago, and it's still good. At this point I'm not overly concerned, because I've started using Gadget Gainer's traditional ascorbic acid and phenidone formulas. Using sodium carbonate as accelerator is works well for prints. With borax as accelerator, it gives good negatives without excessive grain, but lots of borax is needed and developing times are long. But I like the results.

If phenidone becomes unavailable, I can make parodinal from generic Tylenol tablets. It can be used for prints if used at higher concentrations than used for negatives.

If acetaminophen tablets get banned, I may try ferrous oxalate, tree bark, or coffee. I won't give up easily. I think tree bark or coffee might stain prints excessively, though.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 12, 2014

As an aside, my condolences to the people of the UK and other countries in the EU. The bureaucrats in Brussels seem to be particularly inept in dealing with technical issues. On another thread I was informed that you can no longer easily obtain TEA. Seems that it was decided that it could be used to make explosives. Since it is used to hake hand lotion I mentally picture terrorists hurling bottles of Jergan's Lotion at the police.

RPC · Oct 12, 2014

Good developers can be made without hydroquinone. D-23, D-76H, and Ansel Adam's Ansco 130 variant are examples. I try to avoid it in formulas because of it's activity change characteristics.

pdeeh · Oct 12, 2014

But you can't lith without HQ ... or can you?

NedL · Oct 12, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
Hydroquinone is particularly toxic to fish. So it is a problem should treated sewer effluent reach streams or lakes. Standard treatment methods will not remove it. Hence the EPA also gets involved with its use. This is one reason for its replacement with ascorbic acid in developers.

Even though it is not removed, is it still toxic to fish after oxygenating to reduce the COD or BOD?

ArgentixCa · Oct 12, 2014

Hi everybody!

I know how 'tricky' it may be to get this kind on chemical up North, and I am presently working it out with my Customs-clearing agent to ensure the legal issues are met.
More to let you know about later....

Take care

pentaxuser · Oct 12, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
As an aside, my condolences to the people of the UK and other countries in the EU. The bureaucrats in Brussels seem to be particularly inept in dealing with technical issues.

What exactly have the EU said about the future of hydroquinone. Is it to be banned and if so to whom and when?

When I read your post, Gerald, I was puzzled as in the U.K. you can buy in 250 gm lots from Silverprint and there seems to be no limit as to how many lots you can have. So I was tempted to conclude that in the U.K. at least there wasn't a problem. However maybe your condolences are of the future variety in that at some time in the future it will be banned

If it is to be banned is this "home use" only and not companies, otherwise Ilford for one will have to drop a number of its products, won't it?

pentaxuser

pdeeh · Oct 12, 2014

I read the interview with Mirko a few weeks ago and noted he was concerned about HQ, so I dug around a bit.

I haven't got the references to hand (I actually went and read some abstractsfrom EU docs as well as the Blessed Wikipedia) but the gist was that this was a projected restriction on use of HQ in certain industries and products, and that did not include the photographic industry or products.

If someone would care to check it out and confirm or correct what I've just said, I'd be grateful. I may have misread or misunderstood or misremembered.

However it remains true (caveat: in my personal experience) that some chemicals used in photochemistry have become harder and more expensive to source, for private individuals in the UK anyway, over the past couple of years. It may be reduced demand or reduced supply or increased regulation or a combination of all of those plus other weird stuff (Apple, Alien Lizards & so on) that are the causal factors. I just dunno.

Alan Johnson · Oct 12, 2014

Pentaxuser,I have recently bought 250g hydroquinone from Silverprint and contrary to what you imply they are careful to question that it is going to a bona fide user of photographic chemicals.
Another change that has occurred in the UK is that sodium hydroxide aka caustic soda or lye is no longer sold in high street shops but has to be ordered on the internet.

pdeeh · Oct 12, 2014

You had better tell boots the chemist that Alan. My local one has a shelf full of hydroxide.

paul_c5x4 · Oct 12, 2014

Quite true - Accosted the "responsible pharmacist" on duty at my local Boots, and they had a draw full.

pdeeh · Oct 12, 2014

The maddening thing to me is the sheer bloody inconsistency of availability.

So I can go into any branch of B&Q or Wickes or any TravisPerkins or Jewsons depot and buy drain and concrete cleaners by the gallon that contain lethally high concentrations of Sulfuric and Hydrochloric acid ... yet if I ask in Boots for isopropanol (or,more recently, peroxide) I get looked at as if I have either 2 heads or as if I am a terrorist with 2 heads. One dispenser actually had a fit of laughter when I asked for isopropanol once. Impossible to get except mail order.

Paul runs into problems with borax, yet every Chinese supermarket sells it by the kilo for a particular sort of food preparation (that's right).

I can't buy dichromate from Silverprint unless I'm an educational institution but I can buy by the kilo on eBay

I can't buy sulfite anywhere except for Silverprint or Process Supplies, yet it is an incredibly widely used industrial chemical, including for food.

bah humbug

paul_c5x4 · Oct 12, 2014

Add to that list:
Sodium Metaborate
Boric Acid
Metol
Formaldehyde (Formalin)
Industrial denatured alcohol
Glacial acetic acid

Don't even contemplate trying to find Glycin in the UK and Amidol hasn't been seen for gawd knows how long... Yet one can buy gunpowder by the kilo over the counter on almost any high street - I'm off to buy a few barrels, then down to London

Gerald C Koch · Oct 12, 2014

pentaxuser said:
What exactly have the EU said about the future of hydroquinone. Is it to be banned and if so to whom and when?

The contemplated EU ban seems to be similar to that proposed in the US, mainly hydroquinone's use in skin products. It can cause disfiguring damage to the skin and in extreme cases, which evidently have occurred, serious poisoning. In addition the EU equivalent of the US EPA has enforced rules on the discharge of hydroquinone.

Another change that has occurred in the UK is that sodium hydroxide aka caustic soda or lye is no longer sold in high street shops but has to be ordered on the internet.

Where I live some intellectually challenged bureaucrat has decided that people use Red Devil brand lye to make drugs. Therefore they have reasoned that if you ban its sale no one will be able to make drugs. The result is that you can no longer find it in supermarkets. So what have the drug makers done - they have switched to Drano brand drain cleaner. Same chemical with a different brand name. The stupidity of those in government never ceases to amaze me.

desertrat · Oct 12, 2014

Drano has aluminum turnings in it. When it gets wet, an aggressive bubbling occurs and it gets hot, making it more effective at unclogging drains. I understand the aluminum turnings are also there to discourage its use by meth cooks. I think there is another active ingredient in there also for the same dual purpose. I suppose a really dedicated meth cook could spend a day or so removing all the aluminum chips with tweezers to get a usable product.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 12, 2014

desertrat said:
Drano has aluminum turnings in it. When it gets wet, an aggressive bubbling occurs and it gets hot, making it more effective at unclogging drains. I understand the aluminum turnings are also there to discourage its use by meth cooks. I think there is another active ingredient in there also for the same dual purpose. I suppose a really dedicated meth cook could spend a day or so removing all the aluminum chips with tweezers to get a usable product.

The presence of the aluminum turnings is more of a "parlor trick" than anything else. They give the illusion that Drano works better than plain lye. I doubt that they would affect on Drano's use in drug making. These people are not really concerned about purity of the product.

IIRC, the original ordinance of which I posted specifically mentioned Red Devil brand lye thus permitting other brands to be sold. I went down the street to a hardware store and bought the brand that they stocked.

The problem with banning the sale of particular chemicals like glycerine is that practically you can make an explosive from any organic chemical that you can nitrate. I am waiting for someone to realize that you can make a very effective explosive from urea. We all know where that comes from. During WWI the pissoirs in Paris had a sign admonishing men to contribute to the war effort.

Banning thee sale of glycerine seems particularly short sighted. In the case of nitroglycerine the problem is somewhat self limiting. This chemical is SO shock sensitive as to be useless to terrorists. Remember you have to deliver it to the site. Particularly tricky in this case. Modern day bomb makers have become more sophisticated but evidently bureaucrats have not.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2014

I actually applaud the "declare intended use" regulations.

Photographic uses are benign, and generally the quantities used by photographers aren't useful for illegal or highly polluting purposes.

So you fill out the forms, and the authorities who are trying to prevent real harms can easily differentiate you from those harm creators.

It isn't the information they require - it is how they apply their knowledge.

Gerald C Koch · Oct 12, 2014

MattKing said:
I actually applaud the "declare intended use" regulations.

The problem with this policy is that it doesn't really prevent the bad guys from getting what they want. They merely have to lie. Something at which I assume they are quite accomplished. It is however another annoyance for the rest of us.

desertrat · Oct 12, 2014

paul_c5x4 said:
Hydroquinone is proving to be difficult to source in the UK in small quantities - The few places that do stock it are getting more and more expensive.
Recently found out that Borax is now a "restricted" chemical and should not be sold to the general public. This EH list also includes Boric Acid and other borate derivatives which is making it difficult to source the chemicals we need for many developers. But hey, there is always someone on ebay willing to flout the rules

If borax becomes unavailable, which I understand hasn't happened quite yet, I'm wondering if some other alkali or mixture might be able to replace it. I think the ph of D-76 or other borax containing developer is around 9.5. The Gainer mixture I use with lots of borax is probably a bit higher, but I don't know how high.

A bit of internet searching reveals that buffer solutions of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate can yield solutions in the range of ph 9.2 to 10.8, and somewhere in this range it might be possible to get a developer that behaves more or less like those containing borax. Might be the basis for some experiments.

MattKing · Oct 12, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
The problem with this policy is that it doesn't really prevent the bad guys from getting what they want. They merely have to lie. Something at which I assume they are quite accomplished. It is however another annoyance for the rest of us.

While it may not "prevent the bad guys from getting what they want", it does help the good guys establish their bona fides in a climate of suspicion and ignorance.

Photo Engineer · Oct 12, 2014

Borax is quite toxic to citrus crops. Therefore, when we converted from EP6 to EP3 processing we changed from a borate buffer to a carbonate buffer. This information came to us via the Florida citrus growers as the effluent from photofinishing labs was becoming a problem.

I can see some reasoning in this one.

PE

mrred · Oct 12, 2014

I've had issues with getting HQ for quite some time. I can buy food grade ascorbic acid by the boat load. I have also made peace with Phenidone (mostly use Metol) and given up on any reliable source of pyros. I adjust what ever recipe I use to compensate for what I have. At the end of the day, film get's developed to a standard I need.

A lack of CD-4 is all that hurts and probably will give up on C-41 completely when my stash runs out.

Rudeofus · Oct 13, 2014

desertrat said:
I suppose a really dedicated meth cook could spend a day or so removing all the aluminum chips with tweezers to get a usable product.

You see, that's how it will all come together! They will outlaw tweezers in early 2015 and voilà, the war on drugs is finally won! :munch:

Xmas · Oct 13, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Borax is quite toxic to citrus crops. Therefore, when we converted from EP6 to EP3 processing we changed from a borate buffer to a carbonate buffer. This information came to us via the Florida citrus growers as the effluent from photofinishing labs was becoming a problem.

I can see some reasoning in this one.

PE

I think borax is still an approved insecticide by federal Guv?

Boric acid was usable as an eye wash treatment before more effective topical antibiotics were available.

Boron compounds are not especially nice.

Use as a wash aid finished a decade or so ago in UK I think with sodium carbonate substituted.

Hydroquinone: the latest controlled substance?

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