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HP5+ - what the heck are these stains?

alkos

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35mm
(excuse poor quality, this is a quick scan from a contact sheet)

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- 17 rolls of HP5+ from the same batch, problem exists on 8 of them
- developed in batches of 3
- 1 liter of developer used (replenished Xtol, 15,5 min @ 19degC), inverted 10x at the beginning of each minute. Tank manufacturer recommendation is less than 300ml/roll
- water instead of stop bath poured approx 15s after the developer, then washed again. Shaken well.
- ilford rapid fix 1+4, ph 4.5, silver content 3g/l , 2 minutes
- demineralised water with photoflo at the end

Sometimes stains are round, sometimes streaky like here - but always lighter than the rest of the picture, so they are not air bubbles in my opinion.

The most problable thing to me are developer drops left on the emulsion, that overdeveloped it locally - but it was only 15 seconds before I've poured the dev out and poured the water in.

Any suggestions? I've posted this on a polish photo forum and there was no clear conclusion, but the discussion drifted towards manufacturer's fault.
 
Dear Alkos,

Not easy to see but it looks very much like fluid flows with density changes around the flow, 99.9% certain
during the developing stage of processing, does not look like air bubbles to me.

With Kind Regards

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
 
Looks like some kind of contamination, it's definitely a processing fault because of the way the dark patches flow (on the negatives). Very slight traces of fixer can cause this if a tank isn't washed properly between processing, the seals etc need removing during washing as fix can get trapped between the seal and lid.

You've got streaks which have had more development and fixer contamination can cause this. This could also be happening because your not using a stop-bath and agitating enough straight after adding the fixer, you might need to rinse & agitate better if only using a water stop-bath.

Ian
 
Simon - this is exactly how it looks to me - however I don't know how it would be possible... there was surplus of developer (1000ml instead of ~850ml)... Is it possible for replenished developer (1l of xtol solution, replenished with fresh one 300ml per 3 rolls) to contain too much of wetting agent from the film, so they create foam dense enough to prevent normal fluid flow or creating "air pockets" in the tank? ... curious....

Ian - I wash film in the same tank using modified ilford method (multiple water exchange) and my tank has no seals (Paterson, the newer type). However the initial agitation in the water bath was indeed sublte, I've shaken the whole thing more seriously after the 2nd water exchange. This clue make sense.

Thank you, gentlemen
 
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Was the film frozen/defrozen before use?
Maybe water condensed on the film -if it was improperly defrozen- and left those marks.

Certainly looks as some kind of water mark, but your description of the processing sounds impeccable.
 
It's not the replenished Xtol, that's how I've used Xtol for years, in fact since it's release. Foaming looks very different and causes the opposite light areas on the neg so dark on the print.

You might well be under fixing, I missed that before, as you say there's 3 gms silver per litre and these streaky areas perhaps haven't fully cleared so darken after washing and exposure to light. That seems a very strong possibility, see Ilford's PDF as they say 2-5 mins for films, and your fixer isn't fresh. I use Ilford Rapid fixer and it definitely slows with use as do all fixers.

Ian
 
alkos said:
No, it wasn't, neither were reels. Could pure water drops cause this?
Click to expand...

No. If anything they'd slow initial development in those areas so just the opposite.

I'd add that I regularly use wet tanks and never get any processing faults. Sometimes I'll run 3 or 4 batches of film through the tanks only drying the column & spirals.

Ian
 
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alkos said:
No, it wasn't, neither were reels. Could pure water drops cause this?
Click to expand...

I can't say for sure, but here are some observations: I've seen people saying you should reduce, or increase, or keep development time the same when doing prerinse. I've no idea what really happens, but I tried immersing half of a film leader in water for some minutes. After that, I put it in a paper developer tray to see what happens. Of course, paper developer is much harder and I obviously got exaggerated results, but the truth is that the wet part became denser than the dry within a minute or so in the developer. So, if your tank has a significant amount of water in it, it might cause problems. The truth is that I can't say that's your problem, I'm not an expert. It's also true though that the flow marks (wet parts?) you have are more dense in the negative and it might be the case. Who knows...
 
Ian - I usually open the tank after 30s of constant agitation in the fixer - the film was visually clear after 1min, so I gave it additional 1min just in case. Moreover, it still looks clear in these areas (no "milky shine" anywhere)

M Pandolfo - no, fresh out of the box.

Anon Ymous - as Ian says, I would expect the affected areas to be underdeveloped in case of both water spots and air bubbles (learned the second one the hard way ;-) ) Perhaps you have used developer-incorporated paper in your experiment?
 
alkos said:
...Anon Ymous - as Ian says, I would expect the affected areas to be underdeveloped in case of both water spots and air bubbles (learned the second one the hard way ;-) ) Perhaps you have used developer-incorporated paper in your experiment?
Click to expand...

It wasn't paper, it was a piece of film leader! And trust me, the wet part of it developed quicker than the dry.
 
I'm sorry, I've misread this part. That would make sense then: I normally develop no more than 2 films, so never had to load wet reels... Hmmm... thanks! I need to finally start pre-rinsing I guess
 
alkos said:
I'm sorry, I've misread this part. That would make sense then: I normally develop no more than 2 films, so never had to load wet reels... Hmmm... thanks! I need to finally start pre-rinsing I guess
Click to expand...

Well, I'd say stick to what you're already doing, if it works for you, I didn't "advocate" prewet. I started prewetting films to keep temperature as close to planned as possible and continue doing so, without any problems whatsoever. It works for me, so I continue. I also develop usually 1-2 films, so everything is always dry. Never had something like that happening. Anyway, try another round with everything dry and see what happens.
 
alkos said:
No, it wasn't, neither were reels. Could pure water drops cause this?
Click to expand...

This may or may not be the cause, but I think it is poor technique to load wet reels and tanks. I can't even see how you can load a wet reel anyway... in my experience, if they are damp, the film tends to stick and resists advancing... I may be confused, but irregular wet areas do increase the speed at which development can begin... as development occurs after the developer penetrates into the emulsion, not (mearly) while it sits simply on the surface, so wet drops on the film is not a good practice, IMO.

One other thing... you describe your agitation method as "shaking"... that is a new method to me...

Are you using the inversion method?
Or rotary agitation?
Or, are you actually "shaking" the film?

Ray
 
Anon Ymous - just checked, first 3 rolls are not affected. This makes your hypothesis even more probable

Ray - I had no significant problems loading wet paterson reels. "Shaking" is my non-native-english-speaker's way to describe "vigorous inversion", 10 times in 10 seconds.
 
alkos said:
Ray - I had no significant problems loading wet paterson reels. "Shaking" is my non-native-english-speaker's way to describe "vigorous inversion", 10 times in 10 seconds.
Click to expand...

OK, you said you used new type reels... perhaps there is a difference...
I don't know. In anycase, my films hate damp reels!
Maybe they are predujice?

Inverson...
Thats what I thought... but it never hurts to be sure.

Good luck,

Ray
 
I agree with the first poster

Uneven development , specifically in the first 15 seconds. you need to be quick when pourning in the dev and getting flow of chemicals on the film.
 
Bob, the tanks were opened after 30 seconds in the fixer, and the fix wasn't fresh, that could easily cause these problems. I've used only (except one 25 litre trial of Amfix) Hypam or Ilford Rapid Fixer since the early 1970's and a film isn't 100% cleared after 30 seconds in used fix, parts might appear to be.

If you turn the lights on too early when printing you can get grey fogging stains, film is no different.

Ian
 
I now agree with the 1st poster and the 19th poster.

 
Tom Kershaw said:
Ian,

What is your policy with regard to when to turn on white lighting? I often go to room lights at around 1/2 total fixing time, especially with test strips, work prints etc.

Tom
Click to expand...

I'd guess about the same but well over half the fixing time Tom, I just know from experience that 30 seconds with films is way too early with a used fixer.

Half the fixing time in the OP's case would be a minimum of 1 minute with fresh fixer and he's using a well used fixer with 3g/litre Silver content, 2.5 mins would be a more sensible minimum but I'd leave longer.

I'm so used to processing it's second nature, but I do turn lights on early with test strips and they do get the ocassional fogging.

Ian
 
In the Jobo I use the fixer @ 1+4 one shot but my Paterson tank processing fixer tends to get reused a few times, say 6 to 10 rolls per litre.

As an aside, I've been considering whether to move over to the Kodak T-Max fixer for film processing, to get the dye out of TMY-2.

Tom
 
Tom Kershaw said:
I...As an aside, I've been considering whether to move over to the Kodak T-Max fixer for film processing, to get the dye out of TMY-2.

Tom
Click to expand...

IMHO, Ilford Rapid is just fine. If you presoak, you'll see some of that dye removed. Doing the leader test, I found that I need to fix for 7'30'', that's 3 times the clearing time. At that point, you have 2 choices: use a clearing agent or not. If you don't, you'll have some dyes left after washing. If you do, you'll get a "normal" negative. I've used something less than half of a level spoon of sodium sulfite for that reason and it's very effective. My washing method is 5 water baths which start with 30 tilts, then leave the tank for 5'. I always get perfect negatives (from TMY2) this way and I'm sure that it's fixed, I checked that. It's probably well washed too, but I need some silver nitrate to be 100% sure about that.
 
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