HP5 + RO9 = dark socket-hole bleed banding

I've developed a range of 35mm film in RO9 at 1+25. That includes FP4, Pan F, Plus-X and Tri-X.

The two rolls of HP5 that I have used look good but both have banding under the socket holes from the top edge of the film. I think this edge was the one at the top of the tank as I always load the same way into a plastic tank with film from the same camera. (I've yet to try this with a SS tank but that is next.)

My technique is pretty consistent now after 15 films: 12mm RO9, 300ml filtered water. 20C. I invert agitate for 60s and then for 10s in 60s (or 5s in 30s for shorter dev times). Slow inversions. I have started to invert agitate back and then forth – i.e. clockwise then counter-clockwise.

The main difference between HP5 and the other films is the dev time which is the longest of all at 8 min. The HP5 film was the first film I dev'd and now the last (No. 15). Any quirks in my process have been largely ironed out since the first film.

There's something grainy, grey, and a little artless that I like about the HP5 in RO9 1+25 that i like so I'd like to try and find a way to fix this. Or at least learn to control it.

Why does this happen only with HP5? I presume it is the dev flowing through the socket holes which then increases activity below them.

Any ideas, please? Rotary agitation? (But I thought that that was a long time no no for similar reasons to what is probably happening here)

Hi

sounds to me like there is not enough chemistry in the tank. Which plastic tanks are you using? From memory a Parrerson tank needs 330ml for a 35mm film....

I would suggest using a little extra dev. Also you mention inversion processing - in your 10 sec/60 secong cycle how many inversions do you get in 10 seconds? I would suggest you should be taking around 5 seconds a inversion...

Let us know how you go

Andrew

My Paterson tank calls for 290ml for 1 35mm roll.

I've found with patterson tanks the reels can slip on the centre spool, so you need to lock the reel in place, or put a second reel in the tank if you are using a 2 reel tank...

First thing I got taught when I started processing film is more chemistry is better than less, just in case something happens..


Also you didin't mention how much you agitate during fixing? It should be the same as for the developer....2-3 cycles per minute after continuous agitation for the first minute..

Please use more agitation and a slightly shorter devlopping time. The streaks are caused by Bromide which should be mixed well in the devloping solution.

Sounds to me like you are getting surge marks. Keep the agitation gentle, you are not making a martini!

> Andrew K,
I'm pretty sure this is not uneven fixing as the negs are not milky in those areas. My fix recommends 10s of agitation each minute and I do more than that – I agitate constantly for 30s and then each 10s .
>enough chemistry
I think that 312ml is more than required for Patterson tanks.
> reel slipping
In neither of these cases did the reel slip. I had it happen once and saw it straight away.

> piu58
Bromide drag? I looked this one up and have read that it is impossible with Rodinal/RO9. I don't know that that is fact yet. Can anyone confirm?

>patrickjames
Surge marks. This sounds the most likely, if it is not bromide drag.

I have adjusted my agitation on the last few rolls to match that recommended in the Developer's Cookbook. i.e fitting one back + and one forth rotation into 5 seconds. That's 180 each way from vertical in 5s. This is slower than I did before which still shows surge marks – but then only on HP5.

Looking around just now, I have read that some people say that surge marks are the result of too much agitation and some say that it is too little. Which is it? Some actually claim to get it from stand development.

Just to make things 100% clear. The lines are dark on the contacts & prints. They extend down under each sprocket and fade towards the centre of the frame. I think that they therefore indicate a lack of development in the neg at those points.

Sorry, if the neg/positive relationship may have caused confusion. And I can't scan to post them.

With a small tank I do 3 or 4 slow and gentle inversions in 10 seconds, and I only agitate for 10 seconds each minute. I used Rodinal regularly, both stand/semi-stand and using normal agitation. The only time I had those streaks you describe was when I stand developed with insufficient agitation at the start of the process.

When I do an inversion I roll it over and twist, so the flow of liquid isn't in one direction, it's a sort of corkscrew motion. I also give the tank a quarter turn or so after each agitation cycle, so that the starting point is different. I've never had a problem with either surge marks or bromide drag using Rodinal in this way. I've used HP5 with Rodinal, but generally prefer slower films with Rodinal, so it's probably been a while since I last used HP5 with this combination.

I had a similar problem when RO9 was agfa Rodinal, not with HP5 but with Tri x and tmax 400, and I cured the problem by using the twizle stick and agitating without inverting for the first minutr, ten sesonds one way and ten seconds the other, then 2 inversions every 30 seconds for the remainder of the development time.this was in the patterson tanks, which I always use.
Richard

I had huge issues with Rodinal and surge marks. Lots of advice on the web; agitation, bromide drag, etc. Slow, even agitation helped a bit, as did making sure there was enough headroom in the tank. I started to use 400ml in my 500ml tank instead of my usual 500ml. They never went away until I looked at my fixing regime. I'm pretty sure my surge marks were fixer damage from over-fixing and violent agitation during the fix phase. What I thought was un-even development was actually bleaching.

For me when fixing I only agitate for the first 30 sec, then just let the tank stand for the remaining 2 1/2 minutes of the 3 in any rapid fixer, such as Ilford rapid fixer,
Richard

[EDIT]

I have just had a message that helpfully and I think definitively confirms piu58 's earlier post* identifying this as Bromide Drag. Solution: More serious attention to agitation required at dev stage. Thanks to Ian who points out that this is a well known problem with an identified and understood cause covered in many textbooks.


*Whoever said that Rodinal cannot cause bromide drag (sorry but I read a Flickr thread!) must most likely be wrong and I apologise to piu58 for not taking his suggestion more seriously at first!