HP5 Plus in DF96 - push processing

Willy T · Jun 14, 2020

Disclaimer/plea for mercy: total home-development newb here. Searched for relevant posts here but drew a blank.

I have a roll of HP5, a jug of DF96, and a Lab Box (inbound). Would like to try the film at a one-stop push (ISO 800).
The Ilford chart recommends simply adding 10 degrees f to the standard temp, which would make it 80-90 degrees, my choice apparently, and to process it for the standard processing/agitation times.

Has anyone done this with HP5? Faced with the 80-90 degree spread, I thought maybe I'll split the difference and start with the chems at 85f.
Any guidance or suggestions or experiences out there?
Many thanks in advance for whatever input you may have.
WT

Donald Qualls · Jun 15, 2020

Follow the Df96 instructions on how to push with the monobath.

You can't just extend your process time in monobath, because once the fixer is done working, it's all over. What you have to do is trade off temperature and agitation to adjust the relative working rates of the developer component and the fixer component. Generally, the warmer the solution, the faster the developer works (this gives a push), and the more you agitate, the faster the fixer works (this can give a pull, by fixing away the halide before all the exposed grains can develop).

Since you quote a temperature increase, I presume that's from Cinestill's documentation -- based on my experience (2 tanks, 4 rolls so far, half 35mm and half 120), I'd take the upper end of the temperature range so agitation isn't as critical. This monobath seems prone to effects that look like bromide drag (not sure if that's actually what's happening, but I'm confident it's related to reduced agitation), so raising temperature is preferred over reducing agitation.

Mind you, I've never used a LabBox (and probably never will) -- I've got a Paterson tank, never had the swizzle stick, and agitate by inversion only. You'll be agitating by rotation, and as I recall probably need to agitate continuously, so plan your temperature accordingly (continuous agitation pushes you further up the temperatuer scale, because the agitation increases fixer action).

Willy T · Jun 15, 2020

Thanks!
Yes, the Df96 chart is quite clear on the raised temp only, with no increase in time, for a one-stop push, and does not address agitation method. With LabBox, it's continuous slow-ish rotation. I'll be comparing results against push-processing of the same film from a respected mail-in lab.

Donald Qualls · Jun 15, 2020

Willy T said:
Thanks!
Yes, the Df96 chart is quite clear on the raised temp only, with no increase in time, for a one-stop push, and does not address agitation method.

Okay, you don't have the other Cinestill chart for Df96, then. It should be in the printed instructions that came with the jug of chemical, but if not, you can look it up on the Cinestill web site. It's a basic chart of how to trade off temperature and agitation for various levels of push and pull. You just have the one that shows what the expected actual EI is for various films in Pull 1, Normal, Push 1, and Push 2 processing, and, as you note, doesn't talk about agitation. This is important because continuous agitation gives the least development -- and you're pushing your HP5+, so you need more than the minimum. Probably you'll need to step up another temperature increment to compensate in the LabBox.

Willy T · Jun 15, 2020

Aha! No printed instructions (other than the label) came with the jug (from a local shop) and I had not looked through the complete info at Cinestill site completely! What's the old saying? "RTFM!"

If I am reading that info correctly (a big if), then their recommendation for a one-stop push for HP 5 under continuous rotational agitation is 3 minutes at 90f.

Thank you for leading me by the hand to the well, Donald - grazie mille!

Donald Qualls · Jun 15, 2020

You're very welcome. I really like Df96 (though I probably won't use it beyond the batch I have mixed and the spare bag of powders on my shelf, due to cost, now that my darkroom is in a working state). There's a lot to be said for "one and done" processing. Warm, pour, agitate, drain, wash, hang. About as simple as film processing will get.

Willy T · Jun 15, 2020

That's also my hope - I do have and have used a Paterson tank (around here somewhere), but hate using a changing bag to load film; hyper-sweaty hands!

Getting back into film; have been sending it off for dev/cut negs only service. My volume is very low; the LabBox is intriguing and looks to be a "cleaner, " less messy alternative for limited quarters.
Thanks again for your patience and restraint in gently pointing out that I was not seeing "what there was to be seen"!
Cheers!

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 15, 2020

Willy T said:
That's also my hope - I do have and have used a Paterson tank (around here somewhere), but hate using a changing bag to load film; hyper-sweaty hands!

You can minimise the sweat at least for 35mm film. While winding the exposed film in the camera make sure that you don't wind the leader into the cartridge. In daylight trim the leader, pull out a small length of film from the cartridge and slide it into the reel. Now take the reel and cartridge into the dark bag and complete the loading. Even if you sweat inside the bag, it won't do much harm. Loading 120 film is trickier.

Willy T · Jun 15, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
You can minimise the sweat at least for 35mm film. While winding the exposed film in the camera make sure that you don't wind the leader into the cartridge. In daylight trim the leader, pull out a small length of film from the cartridge and slide it into the reel. Now take the reel and cartridge into the dark bag and complete the loading. Even if you sweat inside the bag, it won't do much harm. Loading 120 film is trickier.

120 is a real S.O.B. to load! For me, anyhow.

Donald Qualls · Jun 15, 2020

Willy T said:
120 is a real S.O.B. to load! For me, anyhow.

They get easier with practice, but I firmly agree, a changing bag is the worst possible way to load film (other than not being able to load it at all).

If you have a bathroom (even a half bath) with no windows, you can probably weather strip the door and stuff a towel into the crack at the bottom, drop a cutting board over the vanity sink, and have a flat space with working room to load your film in. It beats a changing bag all hollow...

MattKing · Jun 15, 2020

A moderately large plastic bin or tray is a great place to put stuff into, and is therefore a great addition to any working space if you want to load reels.

Willy T · Jun 15, 2020

Lamentably, the original builder of this house (c1932, with 1971-1986 additions) believed in windows - light, and plenty of it. Not a single windowless room in the place; even the shop has lots of glass at grade.

Huss · Jun 15, 2020

80 degrees at 6 minutes is all you need to do for 1 stop HP5 push.
But I think you already discussed that.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/product_pdf/3m/DF96_instructions.pdf

Donald Qualls · Jun 15, 2020

Huss said:
80 degrees at 6 minutes is all you need to do for 1 stop HP5 push.
But I think you already discussed that.

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/product_pdf/3m/DF96_instructions.pdf

Except that a LabBox has the film oriented like a Jobo or other roller tank and is designed for continuous agitation -- and to get Push +1 with that agitation, you have to go to 90F at 3 minutes (no point going longer, the film will be fully fixed in 3 minutes with constant agitation).

Huss · Jun 15, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Except that a LabBox has the film oriented like a Jobo or other roller tank and is designed for continuous agitation -- and to get Push +1 with that agitation, you have to go to 90F at 3 minutes (no point going longer, the film will be fully fixed in 3 minutes with constant agitation).

Ahhh.. gotcha!

DF is so easy to use, not sure the complication of a lab box is needed.

Willy T · Jun 15, 2020

Yeah, LabBox wants you turning the crank (or handle) with a steady motion throughout the cycle.

But, you know, I've not used Df96 or a LabBox at all. Years, decades, eons ago I was doing a periodic slow flip/twist of the filled tank every X times for X minutes, according to that particular drill back then.

So, total terra incognita here...and there's the rub: I hate wasting film (not to mention chemicals & time). Thus, rather than risking all in a sweaty-hands wrestling match inside a bag and losing my carefully made shots, off to a lab it goes for the part needing some manual dexterity and grace

What I ought to be doing is practicing filling the reel in the light over and over ...

Donald Qualls · Jun 15, 2020

The whole point of paying $200 (to process both 120 and 35mm) is so you can load the reel in daylight. Mind you, it's only about $75 more than a Paterson and changing bag (and not even that much more if you opt for only one format). Even so, though, practicing with ah sacrificial roll, with the lid open so you can see what's happening, would surely not come amiss...

Willy T · Jun 15, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
The whole point of paying $200 (to process both 120 and 35mm) is so you can load the reel in daylight..

And that was exactly my point in ordering the LB.
Oh, I was unclear: I intended to say that I should have been practicing loading a standard reel (with a "dead" film) over and over to achieve muscle memory and efficient loading, thereby saving myself a few bucks (though even with the optional crank handle, the Lab Box was under $200). *Tsk*

Donald Qualls · Jun 16, 2020

Willy T said:
And that was exactly my point in ordering the LB.
Oh, I was unclear: I intended to say that I should have been practicing loading a standard reel (with a "dead" film) over and over to achieve muscle memory and efficient loading, thereby saving myself a few bucks (though even with the optional crank handle, the Lab Box was under $200). *Tsk*

A new Paterson 3-reel (holds 2x 120 reels or 3x 135, or a Mod 54 4x5 carrier), plus a large changing bag, new, would set you back about $65 plus shipping -- so yeah, you could have saved considerable money. If the LabBox loading works well for you, though, it's probably easier to use than a changing bag (I hate 'em), and if you opt for a pop-up changing tent, plus the Paterson that leaves room for 4x5 later, you'd then be at roundly $140 plus shipping, close to the price of the LabBox single format. Paterson is more versatile and economical of chemistry, and a changing bag/tent is a multipurpose device you can take with you into the field (fixing camera jams, unloading special setups like 35mm in a medium format, reloading large format film holders/Grafmatics/pinhole cameras).

But if you only shoot 35mm and/or 120, the LabBox is a reasonable alternative, and I presume the learning curve is a little easier. I'd still sacrifice a roll to make sure you have it loading correctly. The video I've seen appears to show some potential pitfalls.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 16, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
the LabBox is a reasonable alternative

If you have multiple rolls to develop then with LabBox it is going to take a lot more time than with Patterson tanks especially if one is doing stand or semi-stand development.

Willy T · Jun 16, 2020

Well, at my film use rate - about a roll per month - I don't anticipate a need for multi-roll processing anytime soon, especially given our "locked-down" conditions.
Consideration of home-processing was first sparked by a desire to shoot test rolls with all the recently re-acquired film Nikons I've been buying online (a very clean black F2A is just in this week), and with all the time on our hands lately, to finally get more than a nodding-acquaintance with developers and processing protocols, rather than relying on labs. There's a bit of instant-gratification to be had with producing negatives in these frustrating times. Df96 seemed a good starting place. If it can be done mess-free, in the daylight, and without sweaty hands, so much the better.

HP5 Plus in DF96 - push processing

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