How's it doin'?

Ed_Davor said:

I just got the local prices for RB67 and 645 pro TL...they are over the top.

Click to expand...

You're leaving me with the serious impression that you've not checked KEH? Why are you avoiding this? You have received good advice from professionals and dedicated amateurs, and while I've not shot MF that long myself, my experiences with my gear support the advice of others and back my contributions to this thread. While all this advice was given in a true spirit of generosity, you seem to spurn it. Why? Are you trolling us?

cao said:

You're leaving me with the serious impression that you've not checked KEH? Why are you avoiding this? You have received good advice from professionals and dedicated amateurs, and while I've not shot MF that long myself, my experiences with my gear support the advice of others and back my contributions to this thread. While all this advice was given in a true spirit of generosity, you seem to spurn it. Why? Are you trolling us?

Click to expand...

The customs for importing here are about 50% of the original price (shipping included in that price). I've seen the Keh website.

If I prefer buying new equipment, that is my choice, it has nothing to do with advice. Are you saying all those people from who you have been buying your used equipment have been fools for buying them new?

Ed,

Without knowing where your located, it is difficult for any of us to know what your customs charges are, so hence the pricing issue is unknown to us.

Dave

well, I'm from Croatia, so anything from these big on-line used equipment stores is an import and I have to pay customs

Ed_Davor said:

Are you saying all those people from who you have been buying your used equipment have been fools for buying them new?

Click to expand...

Since you are blunt with me, I'll return the favor. With so much excellent used gear available from known trustworthy sources, that is indeed what I am saying. New is not smart in this market; it's your money though.

Ed_Davor said:

well, I'm from Croatia, so anything from these big on-line used equipment stores is an import and I have to pay customs

Click to expand...

You should have made this clear from the onset. You write better than many native speakers of English, and the use of "new <consumer-item> smell" is a peculiarly American idiom, so I was deluded into assuming that you had ready access to the US market, and on that assumption you did seem to me to be planning to buy Hasselblad for reasons of status no matter what arguments were raised against. I have a visceral disgust with the camera-as-jewelry set. Again, I'm sorry for thinking that and speaking harshly. I do believe that there are other Croatian members who might give you some hints.

I also understand how you might be more worried about a used purchase from a foreign country. I did have to exchange a body I bought from KEH. They were excellent about it, but I live in the US, so the shipping back and forth was no particular pain. I wouldn't have thought that had I been in your shoes.

Half the purchase price as import duty seems to my poor addled American brain as obscenely high; I wonder if there's a brokerage fee in there that could be reduced by a careful choice of carrier.

cao said:

Since you are blunt with me, I'll return the favor. With so much excellent used gear available from known trustworthy sources, that is indeed what I am saying. New is not smart in this market; it's your money though.

Click to expand...

What kind of a logic is that?

Your ideal model of behaviour (the smart one) is not to buy new gear, yet you wouldn't be able to do so without those who brake your code of behaviour.
If everyone is "smart" enough to buy used then who will be the first one to buy the equipment?
How can you depend on a certain kind of behaviour and at the same time say its stupid? That is irrational

cao said:

Half the purchase price as import duty seems to my poor addled American brain as obscenely high; I wonder if there's a brokerage fee in there that could be reduced by a careful choice of carrier.

Click to expand...

The truth is, the customs here are pretty unpredictable.
I often buy cheap things from amazon, like DVD's and stuff, and the customs are usually about 40%-50% of the price, but sometimes it is lower, and sometimes they don't charge me anything, which makes them really unpredictable.
Now, I think for such large amounts of money (like photo gear) the customs would be less than 50%, but still you can never really be sure with these guys, they can rip you off when they feel like it or not charge you anything.
But accoarding to the law, they ARE supose to charge you every time, and I think it is about 40%-50%, at least for lower prices.
Now these 50% are not all just customs, but that's what the postman charges you with in the end, its tax, customs fee, and the curstoms itself.


And about the Hasselblad, well it's not a status thing. I just trust that even though Hassy's are overpriced, they ARE good, and a 501 is exactly what I'd need:

1. I'd like more than 6x4.5, but I don't need a heavy and huge 6x7, 6x6 would be perfect for me
2. I want mechanical, and manual, not dependant on anything
3. I'd rather prefer a hand crank to a Mamiya winding solution (in the RB67)
4. It simply looks pretty to me, more than RB 67, and it looks more simple than Mamiya 645 pro TL
5. I trust that Zeiss lenses are the best in sharpness and contrast, and I prefer sharpness to good bohek and stuff like that

And my location is also the reason why I'd prefer new equipment, it's just harder to find places for regular service and repair in such a small country.
There is a saying that goes: "I'm far too poor to be buying cheap things"
I tend to agree with it sometimes. It means, sometimes buying cheaper things (or used things) can be far more expensive than buying new and expensive things, because you have less trouble with expensive things.
I trust that professionals take good care of their equipment, but still those cameras have 5-10 years more in their lives than a new one would have, and
tha means more time for you until you have to get it serviced.

But it seems how things are that any option is just too expensive for me to get it anytime soon.
I thought I could get away with a price of about 1600 for new, but it seems not.
In fact, however absurd that is (because Hassies have always been the most expensive for what you get), it seems the Hasselblads are the cheapest solutions in Croatia, because 645 pro TL costs almost as much here, and I think you get more with a 501CW.

In fact, the local price of 501CW is similar to the BHphotovideo price, while the Mamiya prices are 2 times more than BH prices here.

Well either way, I'll have to carefully consider, wheather I should really sacrifise months or maybe years of 35mm shooting just to upgrade to hassie 6x6 or should I just enjoy myself with what I have, and maybe get an old cheap Yashica (which wouldn't be such a disaster if it broke down in the following years considering the price), just to taste medium format.

Ed_Davor said:

...... should I just enjoy myself with what I have, and maybe get an old cheap Yashica (which wouldn't be such a disaster if it broke down in the following years considering the price), just to taste medium format.

Click to expand...

This is all about enjoyment isn't it ? Your plan sounds a good one- but be aware that MF is addictive, my 35mm now rarely comes out to play

digiconvert said:

This is all about enjoyment isn't it ? Your plan sounds a good one- but be aware that MF is addictive, my 35mm now rarely comes out to play

Click to expand...

Yea, I thought of that. In fact I think I wouldn't need my 35mm either If I bought MF gear, so I even thought about selling it, but I wouldn't be getting much money for a used Dynax SLR, because those are so cheap now, that nobody would buy a used one, and even if they did, I wouldn't be getting much more than $100 for it, which wouldn't help much.
Selling a car, or by kidney would on the other hand

Ed_Davor said:

How can you depend on a certain kind of behaviour and at the same time say its stupid? That is irrational

Click to expand...

No no. It's opportunistic! I think you overestimate the role of rationality for the majority in making even big purchases. Leon Festinger would have had far less to talk about if that weren't the case.

I don't know what your budget is but you can always combine new and used depending on what your priorities are. Granted I would buy new if I had the money but the price difference is huge. For the most part, new MF gear is still going for what it cost in the pre-digital age (mega $) and with pros dumping their stuff hand over fist for digital, the market is saturated right now. KEH makes good on what they sell but even in a worse case scenario I could break and completely replace my used gear several times over before I spent as much on what my stuff would cost new. On the other hand there's nothing like a minty fresh camera with a full warranty so if you can afford it then by all means go ahead.

Ok, after some consideration of large format, I'm back to considering medium format

Considering where I live, and considering my paying options (I need to be able to pay by Amex over at least 12 months) and what I can remotely affoard,
I've narowed by search down to two options:

1. Mamiya pro TL + 80mm 2.8 + 120 film back

2. Hasselblad 501CM + Planar CFE 2.8 80mm + 120 film back

I'd probably throw in a lens hood or something at the last minute


The hassie option is about 1000 more expensive, but I think it does have to offer more for the following reasons:

1. I am under the impression that the Zeiss planar 80mm is sharper than Mamiya 80mm 2.8

2. I'd prefer 6x6 to 645

3. I'd prefer a totally electric independent operation, providing that the mechanical part is well made, and I trust that Hasselblad can make it good

4. I like a more classic design


Now, what is your opinion, if you had to chose between the two systems, which one would you rather chose and why?

Hi Ed,

Well if 6x6 is your choice, the Hassy is going to be the way to go, if your using AMEX, you might check with them, they used to have some programs with that card that would let you purchase something and then extend the payments out over a period of time.

Dave

Ed_Davor said:

1. I am under the impression that the Zeiss planar 80mm is sharper than Mamiya 80mm 2.8

Click to expand...

I thought I had established that for reasonable enlargements that this was not an issue. It's like talking about the top speed of your car being 320KPH, but you will only drive it in an area where all limits are 100KPH or less. What's the bleeping point? For what's it's worth, I can get very very good 28x36cm prints at ANY APERTURE with my Mamiya glass. Any competent MF system will do 10X. I don't print large, but I've looked at these same negative under 10X magnification, and they are sharp. I'm suggesting that you try try try very very hard to forget about that macho sharpness factor. Who cares! Even granting sharp negatives, I'll give the last word to Time Magazine shooter Bill Pierce who said: "Never ever confuse sharp with good, or you will end up shaving with an ice cream cone and licking a razor blade."

Well, to use your analogy.
A car that can go 320kph behaves differently at 100kph than a car that can go only 150kph

Same way, while you may never reach the maximum resolving power of either of the lenses, the MTF response is usually higher at lower frequencies in the one that achieves more resolwing power at the end of the curve.

But ok, even if this is not really visible, there is still the clarity and contrast for which Zeiss lenses are know. Or am I wrong?


Well anyway, the most important think of all that leans me toward hasselblad is
a 100% mechanical body.

Ed_Davor said:

Well, to use your analogy.
A car that can go 320kph behaves differently at 100kph than a car that can go only 150kph

Click to expand...

Do I have to stick "all else being equal" in this? This is truly tiresome.

Same way, while you may never reach the maximum resolving power of either of the lenses, the MTF response is usually higher at lower frequencies in the one that achieves more resolwing power at the end of the curve.

Click to expand...

And this does what to improve your photography?

If there is any doubt at this point, I very strongly believe that good photography has damn little to do with what gear it's shot on. I think you'd do better to spend that money on museum tickets and good books of, not on, photographs rather than MF gear, since you've decided in advance of any direct experience with any MF gear to base your selection on strictly technical concerns. I think this indicates you tend to value those concerns above things that make a major difference in the quality of a photo. Having a lens on hand, just about any lens, and knowing what to do to get a picture you find pleasing matters far more than any MTF chart. This is APUG which is about photography and not measure-bation.

Read the comments by Cardwell and Perez in (there was a url link here which no longer exists) thread.

I'm just trying to get most from my money, since this will be my first and last MF camera.

It really comes down to a question:
if someone offered you a sharper lens and a softer lense, even though you may not use its benefits, which would you chose?

And like I said, the Zeiss lens is only of of the reasons why I'd like a Hasselblad better.


P.s. It's usually those people who don't have talent that are obsessed by gear, I'm of of those...
Great photographers are not ashamed to shoot on point and shoots, because they have nothing to prove.

I can't believe this thread is still going on after almost two weeks.

Ed, it seems to me that you want someone else to make up your mind for you. Mamiya and Hasselblad both make great cameras and lenses. Just choose the format you want and go with that camera. Its really that simple. I guarantee you'll be happy with your negatives no matter which you choose.

Like I said, if you want 6x6, Blad, if your happy with 645, then Mamiya, other than the format, not much more to say.

Dave

You've said quite a bit in a few words, but you may have brought out some issues I feel worth considering.

Ed_Davor said:

I'm just trying to get most from my money, since this will be my first and last MF camera.

Click to expand...

That may be your biggest problem. Without a bit of hands-on, you can't really have a foundation for preferences. I'd really advocate getting a cheap Japanese twin lens to start with. That should come cheap enough that you can try shooting square, and find out what you like and don't like about that.

Ed_Davor said:

It really comes down to a question:
if someone offered you a sharper lens and a softer lense, even though you may not use its benefits, which would you chose?

Click to expand...

The trouble is that it's not so simple. By having a criterion of 'sharp enough' you broaden your choices and allow yourself to look at other things a camera or lens can offer. But even in this simple case, if I knew that both lenses met my needs as determined by experience as far as sharpness, I'd go with the cheaper of the two all else being equal. All else is seldom equal.

Ed_Davor said:

And like I said, the Zeiss lens is only of of the reasons why I'd like a Hasselblad better.

Click to expand...

Trouble is that without logging hours on various MF lenses, how do you know? Maybe that softer lens has other characteristics which make a better picture to your eyes. I guess my point is that ouside of technical commercial photography there is such a thing as sharp enough.
Same with cameras, without experience, how do you know what machines click with you ergonmically?

Ed_Davor said:

P.s. It's usually those people who don't have talent that are obsessed by gear, I'm of of those...

Click to expand...

Do not dismiss yourself so lightly. My strong hunch is that by leaving the realm of bench racing, you're far more likely to find, develop, and explore that creative side.

Mainly just grab a camera from the majors with the normal and burn some film. Unless you're a commercial shooter with a hopped up art director with funky preconceptions about camera performance breathing down your neck, you'll do just fine.

cao said:

That may be your biggest problem. Without a bit of hands-on, you can't really have a foundation for preferences. I'd really advocate getting a cheap Japanese twin lens to start with. That should come cheap enough that you can try shooting square, and find out what you like and don't like about that.

Click to expand...

that would slow me down quite a bit, as in order to get a used yashica
over here from one of the used camera companies, I'd have to spend almost $500, which is a considerable portion of the price of a Mamiya or Hassie

Trouble is that without logging hours on various MF lenses, how do you know? Maybe that softer lens has other characteristics which make a better picture to your eyes. I guess my point is that ouside of technical commercial photography there is such a thing as sharp enough.
Same with cameras, without experience, how do you know what machines click with you ergonmically?

Click to expand...

Well you can always soften a sharp lens, you can't sharpen a soft lens, It's a matter of just-in-case-I-need-it-one-day

Do not dismiss yourself so lightly. My strong hunch is that by leaving the realm of bench racing, you're far more likely to find, develop, and explore that creative side.

Click to expand...

I was being a little sarcastic (not that there is no truth in whay I said).


And again, the main thing that attracts me to 501CM is that it is mechanical all the way. That's what I want.
Before my Minolta SLR I used an old 70's mechanical (exept for the lightemeter) Practica. I wanted more high-tech so I went to a modern SLR, but now I miss that simplicity and direct approach of a simple metal box that takes pictures. I think hasselblad offers the same.
Of course so does RB67, but out of the two I'd prefer 501CM.

And at the end there is the question of:
If I had all the money in the world, what would I buy?

The answer to the question is 501 or 503 or 555

So, how often does a guy get to buy his dream gear?

Ed_Davor said:

that would slow me down quite a bit, as in order to get a used yashica
over here from one of the used camera companies, I'd have to spend almost $500, which is a considerable portion of the price of a Mamiya or Hassie

Click to expand...

That seems awfully high. Does Croatia have no good used market whatsoever? Do you have no local acquaintances that might help you find something or loan something to try? Are there no shops with gear for hire? I think that spending a big hunk of cash to try MF seems painful. Going slowly isn't as much problem as undo haste.

Well you can always soften a sharp lens, you can't sharpen a soft lens, It's a matter of just-in-case-I-need-it-one-day

Click to expand...

I guess I just have trouble with consideration of one characteristic of a lens to the exclusion of all else.
My point is that if you're scraping coins together to buy your Hassie kit, then you won't have a materials budget to exercise that sharpness. Good paper is not cheap, and even less so is a good printer if you hire one. What are you going to do with these super sharp pictures?

And at the end there is the question of:
If I had all the money in the world, what would I buy?

Click to expand...

The trouble is that by your own admission, you don't, so that's not fertile ground to plow.

Don't dream of gear; dream of pictures!

That seems awfully high. Does Croatia have no good used market whatsoever? Do you have no local acquaintances that might help you find something or loan something to try? Are there no shops with gear for hire? I think that spending a big hunk of cash to try MF seems painful. Going slowly isn't as much problem as undo haste.

Click to expand...

This is a small country with an even smaller MF market. There are no stores that even have MF gear in stock because the demant is low.
It's low because the whole country has about 4.5 million people, most of the photographers that use MF are in the capital, which has only 1 milion peiple.
Now, how many new MF cameras can you sell per year in a community of about 1 milion people? Other factors don't help either:
-people around here are more obsessed about switching to digital than they seem
in america and other parts of the world
-the standard is lower than in western Europe and US, so not many can affoard a new hasselblad. You'd either have to be rich, or crazy like me.

All this means that nobody stocks MF gear in the whole country. Stores that distribute Mamiya nad Hasselblad first have to get it from Austria or Germany when you order it.

That beings said, trying the gear out is out of question, since you can't even buy it the same day you decide to

The used market is based on internet and paper ads, no companies seeling used stuff that I know about.

I guess I could find a used Yashica around here for about $200, but really, I need every penny. As I said $4000 is a lot around here to spend on photo gear, and I'm probably going to have to split it to 24 months over Amex. It will be a long period of eating shit and buying minimum film and processing. There just is no room there
for buying a used Yashica for practicing

What are you going to do with these super sharp pictures?

Click to expand...

Well, you see, this is not all just for fun.
Allthough I'm not a pro, I have been in a situation where I was supose to shoot slides for making a big poster for someone, but optics failed me most of the time, even more than grain from 35mm did.
Now I want not only to upgrade to a bigger image area, I also want better optics for ocasional print jobs. I don't want some kid with a digital SLR making a sharper job on that than I can.
I'm not a pro, but want to be able to do a 100% pro job, because that's what I do from time to time too.

The trouble is that by your own admission, you don't, so that's not fertile ground to plow.

Click to expand...

Well, I think, this time I just might be able to buy my dream gear.