HOW WOULD YOU SHOOT ILFORD DELTA 3200 IN THIS SITUATION?

I have been gearing up to shoot my son's high school wrestling matches this year. This is his 4'th year and he has become very accomplished. I will be using a Nikon f4 and experimenting with Ilford Delta 3200. I have experience with other B@W films but not delta 3200. The scenario is that of indoor auditoriums with less than optimum lighting. I accept and even embrace the grain that comes with B@W 35mm film and am looking forward to the unique look that will be achieved with it's use in this application.

Upon researching this film I have found recommendations all over the map in regards to ISO speed and push/pull development. I will be sending it off to a well trusted local lab.

So..... how would you shoot this film under these circumstances?

Depends entirely on the light level. What EV are you typically experiencing? What lens are you using.?

I find Delta 3200 quite easy to use. I use it quite a bit for indoor basketball games. I just pick the ISO that gives me the best shutter speeds. For me that is usually ISO3200, but gyms are all lit a little differently so sometimes I can drop to 1600 and other times I have to bump all the way to 6400.

For some the best picture quality comes at about ISO 1200, or maybe a little lower. But image quality can have different meanings depending on the situation. Basketball can be very fast paced so good image quality in that situation demands a faster shutter speed along with a reasonable aperture setting so I have at least some depth of field to work with. I usually like to work at 1/250 and f/4. That does a pretty good job of stopping the action, but I have worked at 1/125 and f/2.8. That results in some blurring with less keepers. I don't mind feet and basketball blurring a little but I want the faces to be as sharp as I can get them.

Depending on what it takes to get the shutter speeds I want I have used Delta 3200 from EI800 all the way to EI12800 and all those worked in the specific scenario. Development time extends more and more as you approach those higher ISO settings, shadow detail can suffer and you get more graphic, higher contrast, negatives. But it still works to get the photograph.

All those different ISO setting you read about are just indications of how flexible this film is. Sure, if you are looking forward to getting good tonality and good shadow detail in static or low paced situation then ISO 1200 is a good place to start. You might be able to use that in a well lit auditorium if the wrestling action is slow paced. But personally I would decide what type of shutter speed I needed then establish an exposure index with the film speed and aperture setting to get me to that point.

You may also need to adjust your position since action happening close will take higher shutter speeds to stop than action happening further away.

Hope this helps.

faberryman said:

Depends entirely on the light level. What EV are you typically experiencing? What lens are you using.?

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Sometimes I am right at the edge of the mat- Nikkor AF -d 50mm f1.8 Sometimes up on a balcony 20' high and about 40yds away- Nikon series E 100mm f2.8 prime.
The light will probably be slightly different in every auditorium.

From Ilford's Fact Sheet for the film (with emphasis added by me):

EXPOSURE RATING

The recommended meter setting for DELTA 3200 Professional is EI 3200/36, but good image quality can also be obtained at meter settings from
EI 400/27 to EI 6400/39. It can be used in all types of lighting.

DELTA 3200 Professional is particularly recommended for exposing in the range EI 1600/33 to EI 6400/39. It can be exposed at
ratings up to EI 25000/45, but it is important to make test exposures first to ensure the results will be suitable for the intended purpose.

DELTA 3200 Professional has an ISO speed rating of ISO 1000/31º (1000ASA, 31DIN) to daylight. The ISO speed rating was measured using ILFORD ID-11 developer at 20°C/68ºF with intermittent agitation in a spiral tank.

It should be noted that the exposure index (EI) range recommended for DELTA 3200 Professional is based on a practical evaluation of film speed
and is not based on foot speed, as is the ISO standard.

As you are sending it to a lab, shoot it at box speed and see how you like the results. I have found that labs often are not good at pushing/pulling dev times, even if they are pro labs.
They are more used to the regular process they go through.
And you may be very happy with it a 3200 ISO. I think that is the whole reason for buying/using this film. Please post samples when you are done.

So if I were to decide that ISO 1600 gave me a reasonably fast shutter speed, would I need to tell the lab to develop it at 1600? And if ISO 2000 was needed, then ask for 2000 development and so on?

WILL WORK FOR FILM said:

So if I were to decide that ISO 1600 gave me a reasonably fast shutter speed, would I need to tell the lab to develop it at 1600? And if ISO 2000 was needed, then ask for 2000 development and so on?

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Yes. And they may or may not do that 'correctly'. Shoot it at box speed. See how u like it.

WILL WORK FOR FILM said:

So if I were to decide that ISO 1600 gave me a reasonably fast shutter speed, would I need to tell the lab to develop it at 1600? And if ISO 2000 was needed, then ask for 2000 development and so on?

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I've seen more than a few people say that if they meter and expose at one speed (e.g. EI of 1600) then they like the results they get if they develop it for one extra stop of contrast (EI of 3200).
For clarity, the film has the light sensitivity of an ISO 1000 film. It is inherently low in contrast, so it gives pleasing results when it is under-exposed and the contrast is increased at the development stage. Thus the recommendation for metering at an EI of 1600 or 3200, and developing longer.

I always shoot delta 3200 @ 1600 and develop it in DD-X. I'm happy with using ilford's recommended time.
But at the events I shoot where I can use 1/1000th and f2.8. So you might have to adjust what ISO the film gets developed at.

Here is one of my shots
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/130446797@N06/23684188763/

I've shot Delta 3200 in various situations. 13 years ago I was engaged to take photographs in a night club, without flash. The only way to do that in those days was Delta 3200, even Fuji and Konika's colour 1600 wasn't enough. I typically pushed the Delta 3200 one or two stops...it ended up grainy but I had usable images. I've also used it to photograph rock concerts (most recently this month) where the lighting varies a lot. However I didn't need fast shutter speeds, which you might depending on how the wrestling goes. What I have found with spotlights and concerts is that sometimes highlights such as faces can be whited out, losing a lot of highlight detail.

Depending on how you meter the shot, you might want to expose at 3200 (box speed) but pull 1/2 or even a whole stop in development. I would advise this if you're shooting from a distance. On the occasions when you can get close up, shoot at 3200 and process for 3200. Use spot metering if you can, and centre it on a face or body.

It's a nice film, and can do things no other film can...in that you will get an image of a black cat in a dark unlit alley....but it does have it's limitations. If you find that your camera is suggesting high shutter speeds it might be advisable to expose and process for 1600. It really depends on how strong the lighting is and whether it's going to blow out the features of the wrestlers in an attempt to meter for a darker overall image.

If you want to play safe first time, shoot at box speed and shave 10% off the processing time to save the highlights. However, as you are using a lab, I would suggest in the first instance that you shoot at box speed and let them process it as normal.

For the record, I usually process in ID-11 but have also used Microphen when pushing two stops. Be aware this film will take longer to fix than HP5, Tri-X and other traditional B&W films.

WILL WORK FOR FILM said:

Upon researching this film I have found recommendations all over the map in regards to ISO speed

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Ilford state that it is ISO 1000.

faberryman said:

Depends entirely on the light level. What EV are you typically experiencing?

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EV is not a measure of light level.


Steve.

WILL WORK FOR FILM said:

... So..... how would you shoot this film under these circumstances?

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I would shoot that film -1/2 stop and try it the best I can to achive low-key dramatic situations with those indoor lights, "trusting" and focusing (hand-held) on one goal: well illuminated objects. And the best of luck to you ... and to your son!

(If the development is not in your hands, I wouldn't ask the lab to fix up/down anything - whether trusted or not -).

post edited: spellcheck

Steve Smith said:

Ilford state that it is ISO 1000.

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... to daylight

I've shot a lot of basketball in gyms at ISO 6400. My advice: shoot digital.

Dismayed said:

I've shot a lot of basketball in gyms at ISO 6400. My advice: shoot digital.

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The OP wishes to shoot with film. He may be shooting d****** too, for all we know. I often do both at the same event. But for whatever reasons, OP wishes to try shooting his son's wrestling matches on Delta 3200, a purpose for which it is quite suitable.

Just noticed the OP is from Boise, I lived there for a time in 1998/99 and photographed a couple of basketball matches on Kodak Royal 1000ASA film back then.

Agulliver said:

The OP wishes to shoot with film. He may be shooting d****** too, for all we know. I often do both at the same event. But for whatever reasons, OP wishes to try shooting his son's wrestling matches on Delta 3200, a purpose for which it is quite suitable.

Just noticed the OP is from Boise, I lived there for a time in 1998/99 and photographed a couple of basketball matches on Kodak Royal 1000ASA film back then.

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And I've shot both film and digital in the conditions described, so I offered my advice. Sure, experiment with film, but the shadows will be devoid of features and the lighting is usually pretty flat.

I don't come here all that often - interaction with the Film Taliban can be unpleasant, even though I love to shoot film, in the right conditions.

Dismayed said:

And I've shot both film and digital in the conditions described, so I offered my advice. Sure, experiment with film, but the shadows will be devoid of features and the lighting is usually pretty flat.

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In that case, to my way of thinking, the issue is not about having shot those conditions both ways, but doing it incorrectly or "having some photographic basic concepts misplaced with film, perhaps"

Dismayed said:

... interaction with the Film Taliban can be unpleasant, even though I love to shoot film, in the right conditions.

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Film Taliban? It is easy to see the speck in your brother's eye, but not so easy to see the plank in your own.

Right conditions for film? Now you can delete the word " ... perhaps" in the quotation sentence above.

This may be picky, but .....

An all capitals thread title implies you are SHOUTING the thread title.

MattKing said:

An all capitals thread title implies you are SHOUTING the thread title.

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Well, he did get my attention!

I rate Delta3200 at 1600-2000 and develop in Diafine. The compensating action of Diafine allows me to favor the shadows during exposure and prevents the highlights from blowing out. I find that i get the best results if my batch of Diafine is nicely seasoned.The tonality in the mid to upper ranges will take on a pearly look that is quite beautiful

LAG said:

In that case, to my way of thinking, the issue is not about having shot those conditions both ways, but doing it incorrectly or "having some photographic basic concepts misplaced with film, perhaps"

Film Taliban? It is easy to see the speck in your brother's eye, but not so easy to see the plank in your own.

Right conditions for film? Now you can delete the word " ... perhaps" in the quotation sentence above.

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I understand the characteristics of film - I was educated as a scientist. I shoot multiple film formats, including large format, and I understand densitometry. You can not capture shadow detail when you push process. That is a fact. There are limitations on film speed.

But stick with your religious beliefs, and good luck with your digital jihad.

Dismayed said:

I understand the characteristics of film - I was educated as a scientist. I shoot multiple film formats, including large format, and I understand densitometry. You can not capture shadow detail when you push process. That is a fact. There are limitations on film speed.

But stick with your religious beliefs, and good luck with your digital jihad.

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D.g.t.l photography (and its associated software) follow a linear progression, while the film (like the human eye, by the way) follow a logarithmic progression, and that (except patches, deceits or "smoke screens") it is clearly a d.g.t.l barrier, physically unbridgeable. It sounds strange that being educated a scientist your eyes are blinded to that fact. So, I'm afraid you're pretty confused about the fanatic here, because the limitations are not in either "dark" side of Photography but in the minds of some.

That is why I am not stuck to any religion, but to Photography in all its glory, and that includes Software Photograph. I cannot speak for the rest!

Anyway if you shoot Large Format, I would like you to recommend me a Large Format D.g.t.l Camera.

About the "Push", I did not do such recommendations. Re-read.

I stop here.

Best

I don't think there is any film taliban here. The OP, probably aware of the challenges, has asked for advice how to get the best results using film. Several of us have offered advice on how to preserve highlights and details while obtaining a good overall exposure with film. Were we offering advice for use of a digital device, we'd advise some different techniques to achieve the same ends.

Since the OP is using a lab rather than processing himself, I still recommend beginning by exposing at box speed but possibly spot metering on a brighter area. The first step is to get negatives where the highlights are preserved. The next event, the OP can adjust technique if he feels it necessary.

Certainly film and digital react differently in such lighting, the log vs linear being one important difference. That does not mean that one cannot take great photos of wrestling, boxing, basketball or other floodlit sports. People did this with great success before digital was invented, and can still do so today if they want.

MattKing said:

This may be picky, but .....

An all capitals thread title implies you are SHOUTING the thread title.

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Not picky. I agree. Also, it helps to make the subject as specific as possible, for example "Delta 3200 for shooting indoor wrestling in low light".

Thank you all for the advice that you have so willingly given. As a new striving enthusiast in a digital world I have heavily weighed my options and decided to whole heartedly plunge into the world of film. I do not own a digital camera and do not foresee owning one in the near future. It does not excite me. That is not to say that I have any sort of distain for those that do. "To each his own". I am interested in the photographic process old school. As mentioned earlier, photographers were capable of amazing feats prior to the digital age and that will be the school in which I will study.