How would you meter this scene ?

An incident meter tells us the exposure to use for an average scene's range of tones, based only on the intensity of light falling on that scene. Where it falls down is that the incident meter has no idea that there may be certain parts of the scene which are not capturable because the tonal range of our medium (e.g. color transparency) is exceeded by certain parts of the scene.
In the case of using the Zone System, we might decide to bias the exposure in the direction of the part of the scene that falls off the capturable range, simply because our scene might not have the amount of tonal detail in the shadows, so we tweak our exposure and adjust in the processing.
The incident meter cannot tell us when a studio shot exceeds the tonal reproduction capability of the offset press, whereas a spot meter can identify that issue for us, allowing us to adjust our lighting to bring the entire range of tones to within the range of the offset press making that photo on the printed page.

These are the reasons that I own both an incident meter and also a one-degree spotmeter.

wiltw said:

An incident meter tells us the exposure to use for an average scene's range of tones

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Well there's an urban myth.

It takes two readings, to tell us the range regardless of meter type. A single reading from an incident meter tells us nothing more than a single reading of a spot meter, they both only measure single points, not a range. The only difference is that with a reflective meter we have to judge the reflectivity offset, say 1-Stop for Bill's hand.

Neither meter knows anything about the films range unless we tell it, and only a select few meters will take that input and spit out range info; most of us have do the math to find the SBR with either type of meter.

See (there was a url link here which no longer exists). My suggestion there is an adaptation of a technique called duplexing. (See Dunn & Wakefield's Exposure Manual) Duplexing was specifically designed for finding the best exposure compromise for slide film.

BTZS uses a variation of this duplexing technique with either incident meters or spot meters, at the users discretion, to accomplish what Adams did with with his Zone System and spot metering.

markbarendt said:

Well there's an urban myth.

It takes two readings, to tell us the range regardless of meter type. A single reading from an incident meter tells us nothing more than a single reading of a spot meter, they both only measure single points, not a range. The only difference is that with a reflective meter we have to judge the reflectivity offset, say 1-Stop for Bill's hand.

Neither meter knows anything about the films range unless we tell it, and only a select few meters will take that input and spit out range info; most of us have do the math to find the SBR with either type of meter.

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You significantly overinterpreted what I stated! I'm accustomed to telling someone "There are clouds in the sky", and the interpretation is "Wilt said it's going to rain!"

The incident meter gives a single exposure value based upon intensity light falling upon the scene at the meter position, whether the scene has reflective tones spanning 5EV or 15EV or 8EV. It will allow me to record Zone V as a midtone. But if some of my scene is in shade, with a range of zones within the shade area, and my main subject is in the sun with its full 10 Zones of brightness tonality, my total scene = what is in the shade + what is in the sun...and that might easily span 14EV. So I have no idea how to expose to capture as much as will fit within my capture medium. In part, because I never took any reading in the shade.

Using the spotmeter intelligently allows a photographer to know if 5EV or 8EV or 14EV range of tones exist in the scene, and if you simply average the highest and lowest values you know 'the middle' of the range -- even if the middle of the range is Zone VII and not Zone V. I can read the dark tones in the shade, and I can read the bright tones in the sun, and know that my total scene spans 14EV...so then I can decide to capture the portion of the scene that matters to me, and maybe use processing and printing technicques to broaden what I capture and compress them within the 10 zones of the print, or to alter lighting in the studio to fit the 7EV range of the offset press.

The original question from bascom49 was "How do I meter this scene?" He went on to say that this was one of his first 4x5 images.

While a lot of this discussion has demonstrated how much a lot of us know about metering and film capture, if I were bascom49, I would be reaching for my FE about now and giving up on the 4x5.

The sample digital image already showed that the exposure range for this image is not beyond the capability of film. It also showed that a simple reflective reading could get to a reasonable exposure for this scene.

A smartphone image is as good a place to start as the sunny 16 rule and there are a lot of apps that can help. An incident meter is a good fallback tool and a spot meter can help with extreme cases, but this scene is not one of them.

Regarding development - with 4x5 HP5 almost any developer will do. If you are accustomed to using Xtol replenished, that't fine but it gets more expensive as a one-shot diluted developer. For one-shot I prefer HC-110 dilution H or Rodinal 1+50 which give good sharpness and are dilute enough to not emphasize the HP5 grain clumping. I also use these for TMX and TMY, which I prefer to HP5, but it is really a matter of what you can conveniently purchase and use.

Morning Wilt,

The real difference between the two scenarios you describe is that the incident meter is being used as if it was the first time ever, per the instructions included in the box, while the spot meter is being used as one might after years of practice and reading Adams and the rest.

What I'm saying is that both meters are equally capable of finding out how contrasty a scene is and finding the optimum exposure setting.

It is fully about using either/both intelligently. It is not a matter of one can and one can't.

For example both of the following are true:

1-

wiltw said:

The incident meter gives a single exposure value based upon intensity light falling upon the scene at the meter position, whether the scene has reflective tones spanning 5EV or 15EV or 8EV.

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(The incident meter is the target in this case.)

2-The spot meter gives a single exposure value based upon intensity light falling upon the target, whether the scene has reflective tones spanning 5EV or 15EV or 8EV.