How to step up from Jupiter 8?

Erik Petersson · Jul 13, 2014

Hi everybody,

perhaps anyone could help me with my newest problem. Early this year I bought a Leica MP-4. I really enjoy the Jupiter 8 that I've attached, which give me smooth, smooth grey tones. Or colour if that is the case. It does well for some contrasty subjects, or if I don't want much contrast. But sometimes just to grey. And weird things may happen to colours (perhaps I just overdo things when I try to get normal contrast).

So where do I go from here? I don't care much about brand names, and my subjects and film choice often make super high resolution unnecessary. A tad bit sharper than Jupiter 8 might not hurt though, although it is not bad at f8 and such. The pictures must come out beautiful, and I care about the unsharp areas of the photos. It should be 50mm and I like to shoot in the dark. And not too expensive. I know that this is lot to demand, but these are my preferences.

Thanks in ahead for your advice, everybody.
/Erik

ruby.monkey · Jul 13, 2014

How about a screw-mount Canon 50mm f/1.8? There's a thread on RFF extolling its virtues: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110600. They're sharp and offer pleasant OOF rendering, and are common enough that you should be able to find a good example at a reasonable price.

gone · Jul 13, 2014

The issues you describe aren't caused by the lens choice. Unless you want to spend considerably more money for minimal difference in IQ, you might wish to stick w/ the J8 and sort out the issues you describe. I am not sure what would be causing them, but it sounds like it's a metering issue or shooting in low light. Hard to say w/o seeing the pics.

Erik Petersson · Jul 13, 2014

momus said:
The issues you describe aren't caused by the lens choice. Unless you want to spend considerably more money for minimal difference in IQ, you might wish to stick w/ the J8 and sort out the issues you describe. I am not sure what would be causing them, but it sounds like it's a metering issue or shooting in low light. Hard to say w/o seeing the pics.

I'll upload a few examples. This is fresh portra 400. They seem to be slightly off to my eyes. I know this might be scanning, colour balancing, screen problems etc. It's just that I tend to see consistently better results from my Nikkors with the same setup/films etc. I'm sure lenses can differ quite a lot in contrast, right?

Nuff · Jul 13, 2014

To me it just looks like low contrast lens and I think you want something with more contrast. In that case it's good idea to say what your budget is. I would suggest keeping an eye out for older 50mm summicron. Or maybe zeiss planar.

elekm · Jul 13, 2014

Cosina has made a number of lenses for both the 39mm screw-mount and the bayonet for the Leica. This lets you obtain a very high quality lens but without having to pay for a new or used Leica lens. Depending on the lens, Leica optics can be very pricey - even on the used market.

Although there will always be bad samples among every lens, there have been very few complaints about the Cosina lenses.

If you want to step up pricewise between Cosina and Leica, you can always look at a Zeiss Planar in M mount or perhaps the Rollei-branded 40mm Sonnar that was made for screw-mount. I really like the Sonnar. Compact with decent speeed (f/2.8) and an excellent performer.

But I probably would start with some of the Cosina Voigtlaner lenses. Very good quality for the money that you will spend.

Just remember, sometimes you need to spend some money to get a better lens. Nothing against the Jupiter, but there is going to be a difference in product quality between Soviet-era gear and their Japanese and German counterparts.

mgb74 · Jul 13, 2014

Some "layman's" thoughts:

A lot has be written about shimming Soviet lenses to exactly match the LTM specs. Some say it's necessary, others say it's not. But something to consider.
Are you confident in the quality of your LTM to M adapter?

bdial · Jul 13, 2014

The Cosina's have a very good reputation in general. If you want something modern without spending a lot, they would be a good choice.
For older optics, I have a screw mount Nikkor 50 f/2 that is lovely, and the Canon screw mounts are well liked too.

To my eye, the first two of your samples seem fine. On the third one I think the problem is flare from the direct lighting behind the subject. For lots of the older lenses that's a situation you just need to avoid. A lens hood may help, though it probably wouldn't do much on that particular image. Flare will be a problem with some of the older (aka "affordable") Leica optics too.

For flare, a newer Jupiter may do better, but my understanding is that the build quality and compatibility with Leica threading varies a lot, so a safer choice would be a Cosina, which has no compatibility issues and better build quality.

Erik Petersson · Jul 13, 2014

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I will take a look at the Cosinas, Nikkors, Zeiss, older Leicas and Canons.

I don't know about budget. I could spend more or less, or even sell a few SLR Nikkors that I don't use. I'll look into your suggestions to see where it leads.

Thanks bdial for your thoughts. The last picture might very well be flare, something that my japanese gear handles much better.

Mgb74, I believe shimming takes care of bad focusing, but that does not seem to be my problem.

Ko.Fe. · Jul 13, 2014

Is it old J8? I don't know if newer ones are different in the coat.
If you want fancy colours, you need newer lens. CV kept Color Skopars name for good reason. They give nice saturated colors. I would skip all old glass and check theirs 50mm. They aren't overpriced as Leica.

Erik Petersson · Jul 13, 2014

A quick websearch suggests that these lenses are a bit more expensive than the SLR stuff that I am used to. So. I need to consider.
I don't know the age of my Jupiter. It is unpainted aluminium, I suppose. Looks stylish.
Nah, off to develop some film, talk to you all later.

ntenny · Jul 13, 2014

Before I got mostly out of Leica mount, my regular 50mm was the 50/2 Nikkor. It's a 6-element Sonnar design like the Jupiter-8, but notably contrasty and good at color rendition. Outstanding bang for the buck.

All the Cosina Voigtlaender lenses seem to be good. I've never had a 50 from them, but in your position I'd give a hard look at the 50/2.5 Color-Skopar. I have its 35mm cousin and it's a seriously sharp, contrasty lens.

-NT

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 13, 2014

Looking at those images I'd say your lens is fine, and is a great performer being a Sonnar clone. You could get a hood to prevent some flare and maybe add some contrast. Personally I find many Cosina lenses sharp and contrasty but lacking in character. I've bought and them sold off more than a few. Purely subjective but that's me. My favorite lens is a 50/2 Summicron DR but I like it because it's sharp but with moderate contrast. I have a J-8 too and it's a great lens.

alienmeatsack · Jul 13, 2014

The shimming issue resulting in a slight variation in your focus area could definitely have an impact on your images and the look.

I'd also like to toss in the fact that the J8, like most all Soviet lenses, will vary from lens to lens due to the somewhat relaxed quality control. This plus the coating aging/being rubbed off and so forth can literally make 5 different J8 lenses all render the same exact scene differently, all on the same film, developed in the same developer etc.

I've had two of them and both had slightly different image rendering. One was much softer then the one I ended up keeping. So it's possible that due to the above, your lens has it's own personality like most of these and the look it gives you is due to that.

If you don't mind spending another $50, get yourself another J8, maybe one that's a little newer, and try it. I'd bet you will see a difference and may or may not like it over your current one.

mgb74 said:
Some "layman's" thoughts:

A lot has be written about shimming Soviet lenses to exactly match the LTM specs. Some say it's necessary, others say it's not. But something to consider.
Are you confident in the quality of your LTM to M adapter?

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 13, 2014

I believe the first two serial numbers of the J-8's are the year of manufacture.

Erik Petersson · Jul 13, 2014

The first two numbers are 55. So a Khrushchev era lens, cool!

Richard S. (rich815) · Jul 13, 2014

Erik Petersson said:
The first two numbers are 55. So a Khrushchev era lens, cool!

Wow, that is an old one. Mine's a black one, a 73. From your images I really like the character of yours. If you decide to sell I'm interested.

ic-racer · Jul 13, 2014

Making better prints is the best 'step up' for all film equipment. If you want to start collecting Leica equipment, a Summicron is a good start.

Nuff · Jul 13, 2014

bdial said:
On the third one I think the problem is flare from the direct lighting behind the subject. For lots of the older lenses that's a situation you just need to avoid. A lens hood may help, though it probably wouldn't do much on that particular image. Flare will be a problem with some of the older (aka "affordable") Leica optics too.

I think you pretty much nailed it, and it does look like flare from back lighting. If you want to take photos like that and have micro-contrast you will need a multicoated lens. And usually with coatings, the later they are, the better they get. I would estimate that you should be able to get a good Leica Summicron for around $500-700 if you wait around. A zeiss planar zm will set you back around $1k, but it will have better coatings.

Patrick Robert James · Jul 13, 2014

I think the Canon and Nikon screwmount lenses are your best bets, although they are both old now so it will take some work to find a good copy. If you want something faster then the best deal is probably going to be the Voigtlander Nokton 50 1.5. I don't know how much those are anymore, but they used to be $350ish new. If you really want something fast and fairly cheap, you can convert a Pentax-M 50mm f/1.4 for Leica mount. I did that and it is fantastic. One of the best 50mm lenses of all time. There is a thread on RFF about it.

Xmas · Jul 14, 2014

Buy a deeper hood.
Check there is no hint of mist in lens. They are well made and strip easily. A pro clean worth it.

I used the J12 in LTM 35mm for a long time cause it gave the same single coated signature as my summilux but did not need insurance.

Some people use J8s on M8 and M9.

The Nikkor HCs give same signature as J8. Same lens but in brass mount and heavy. But a collector and expensive

The Canon /1.8 5cm is better of axis (open wider than /5.6 than a J8) but otherwise same signature. I could not find an early J8 but found a Canon P with /1.8 cheap.

Replaced the J12 with a Canon /2 35mm the J12 dont fit Canon Ps

The Cosina Voiglander (CV) LTM lenses are multi coated and more contrasty with less bleed out from high lights.

The CV 5cm /2.5 is a stellar performer the equal of any Leica lens you might be able to buy, but is still expensive and is difficult to get because production was limited.

The web rumors on Cosina quality control problems are sponsored by Leica collectors worried about their profit margin. Cosina still make cameras and lenses for Zeiss!

Cosina make two lenses in bothbsingle coat or multi coat and the sales split seems to run 50 50.

So buy a hood. Unless you cannot abide the SC signature if you want multi coated buy a CV /2.5 - an as new example about 250 GBP but not selling mine or my Canon /1.8.

Leicas post '94 /2.8 collapsible about 600 GBP used, sold mine the CV had better ergonomics.

mgb74 · Jul 14, 2014

Xmas said:
... Replaced the J12 with a Canon /2 35mm the J12 dont fit Canon Ps ...

Do you know this first hand?

I ask because I've read differing accounts on this issue and I'd love to be able to use a J12 on my Canon.

Xmas · Jul 14, 2014

Yes first hand. But you might be ok.

The lens rear barrel was the problem with mine it fouled the 'baffle box' that Ps have. Only canon used a SLR style box in LTM cameras.

Some people bend the box to allow clearances yours may be already bent or have witness marks from foul. The box is very close to the rangefinder... be careful.

The lens rear parrallel diameter tube varies early J12 had brass ferrule later just black paint glass, mine was late, but there are large variations... so it is a potential foul.

Set camera to B and lock shutter try fitting lens at close focus, mine would not have damaged optic merely removing black paint and not threading.

I have a VI and five Ps, none cleared, so I swapped the LTM J12 for a Kiev J12.

Im quite happy with SC lenses on bright days, dull days I use Cosina MC lenses.

My Orion clears ok don't have the Russar, a Kobalux 21mm did not clear.

02Pilot · Jul 14, 2014

FWIW, J12 clears OK on my P and L1, so it can work.

The J8 is a Sonnar-formula lens, as are the Nikkor 50/2 and 50/1.4 and the Canon 50/1.5; the Canon 50/1.4 and 50/1.8 are double gauss/Planar-formula lenses and will produce a more modern look than the Sonnars.

Xmas · Jul 15, 2014

02Pilot said:
FWIW, J12 clears OK on my P and L1, so it can work.

The J8 is a Sonnar-formula lens, as are the Nikkor 50/2 and 50/1.4 and the Canon 50/1.5; the Canon 50/1.4 and 50/1.8 are double gauss/Planar-formula lenses and will produce a more modern look than the Sonnars.

Id accept all that I measured (the J12s I had all Kiev mount cept for one LTM) and there was a variation in rear diameter but the LTM one was not the largest.

I also noted that one P had missing black paint where a J12 or similar lens had been used but the box did not seem to have been distorted.

Before the lens starts threading it can be a long way off axis and remove paint from the Canons baffle.

The rear diameter is not normally a fit issue in LTM cameras and the variation was on a vernier caliper and small.

So given Id got a Canon 35mm single coated I swapped the J12, it was a good performer, and in new condition.

A J8 in good condition will be identical in signature to a Nikon. A canon /1.8 in good condition will be better off axis wider than /5.6. Lots of J8 have been neglected.

Some of the Canons will need internal cleaning for haze removal as they can be etched by lube outgassing it is said, seen the /2.8s badly etched and my 1.8 has needed a clean.

The Canons have escalated a lot in price over the last decade. Only the early J8 in nonrotating mounts which are lower volume have appreciated and rescently the 00xxxx prototypes.

Ill repaint the box in the P one day as a large % of my shots are vertical rather than land scape.

Bessas (in either mount) are likely to foul the rear optic with their shutter as Kievs and Contax II are really close the Contax IIa are impossible the lens cells are too large and penetrate too far.

Compatability is not always simple.

How to step up from Jupiter 8?

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