How to Phenidone mixing...

Willie Jan · Mar 18, 2007

Hi,

i mix my own pyrocat HD and would like to know what the best way is to dissolve the phenidone in the pyrocat A stock solution.
Is is possible to put it in a bottle with distilled water for a day before adding it to the solution or is using alcohol the only way...
Alcohol in 99% is very expensive here, only the 70% is affordable, but what kind of other contamination could shorten shell life...

Can it go wrong when adding directly to the solution A? and if so what would the consequences be of the developing...

Regards,

Willie jan

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 18, 2007

Willie Jan said:
Hi,

i mix my own pyrocat HD and would like to know what the best way is to dissolve the phenidone in the pyrocat A stock solution.
Is is possible to put it in a bottle with distilled water for a day before adding it to the solution or is using alcohol the only way...
Alcohol in 99% is very expensive here, only the 70% is affordable, but what kind of other contamination could shorten shell life...

Can it go wrong when adding directly to the solution A? and if so what would the consequences be of the developing...

Regards,

Willie jan

You can mix the phenidone powder directly into Solution A - but you may have difficulty dissolving the phenidone.

If you make a solution of water and phenidone, it will begin to oxidize.

To make a percentage solution of phenidone, I prefer to use Propylene Glycol as the solvent.

If you use alcohol as the phenidone solvent, it is best to use a very dry alcohol (like 90% or 99% alcohol). Propanol (aka Isopropyl alcohol) is good, Ethanol is also ok, and Methanol is ok as well.

dancqu · Mar 18, 2007

Willie Jan; said:
Is is possible to put it in a bottle with distilled water
for a day before adding it to the solution or is using
alcohol the only way... Regards, Willie jan

Patrick Dignan, who worked much with phenidone,
suggests that 1 gram of the agent along with 5 grams
of sodium bisulfite be dissolved in 1 liter of water.

Using distilled water I managed to squeeze, almost,
1 gram of phenidone into 1/4 liter. Water warmed
but no more than 50C. Dan

gainer · Mar 18, 2007

If you can get propylene glycol, you can dissolve all the chemicals for an "A" solution by using a small amount of ascorbic acid in place of the sulfite or bisulfite. Pyrocatechin (AKA catechol), phenidone and ascorbic acid are all quite easily dissolved in the glycol. Ethylene glycol or glycerine can replace the propylene glycol, but ethylene glycol must be kept from children and canines, and glycerine (which, by the way, is 1,2,3 propanetriol) is a lot more viscous at room temperature than either of the glycols.

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 19, 2007

Hi !
Here, in France, one can get very pure alcool (I think it's more than 90 %) for a song because it is mixed with chemicals to make it un drinkable (mainly mercaptan dervatives) giving it bad smell and an awfull taste. It is mainly used for cleaning and burning.
I was told by chemist holding a Phd that this alcool is good as a phenidone solvent and I use it for that matter... As I do not intend to drink the stuff, I'm safe ;-)

Willie Jan · Mar 19, 2007

GeorgesGiralt said:
because it is mixed with chemicals to make it un drinkable (mainly mercaptan dervatives)

Hi,
isn't that bad for the developer?
i do not know what mercaptan dervatives are....

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 19, 2007

No Iwas told it is not bad. The stuff they put to make it taste bad is so dilute it can't cause harm.
I did not invent this, it was devised for me by a PHd chemist which is also a photographer doing his lab work.

Willie Jan · Mar 19, 2007

GeorgesGiralt said:
No Iwas told it is not bad. The stuff they put to make it taste bad is so dilute it can't cause harm.
I did not invent this, it was devised for me by a PHd chemist which is also a photographer doing his lab work.

Ok,thanks
i will try it out...

What amount of alcohol do you use to dissolve the phenidone?
Would 10-20ml be enough....

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 19, 2007

Well in fact I dissolve 10 gr Phenidone in 100 CC alcool. And I use 10cc mixture when I need 1 gr phenidone.

Willie Jan · Mar 19, 2007

GeorgesGiralt said:
Well in fact I dissolve 10 gr Phenidone in 100 CC alcool. And I use 10cc mixture when I need 1 gr phenidone.

ok,
but if you have added the 10cc to the stock solution, and assume that you were creating 500cc stock solution, are you making 510cc then and wait for the alcohol to vaporize...

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 19, 2007

Willie Jan said:
ok,
but if you have added the 10cc to the stock solution, and assume that you were creating 500cc stock solution, are you making 510cc then and wait for the alcohol to vaporize...

Do not wait for the alcohol to vaporize - you will have a long wait!

The alcohol is hygroscopic (it grabs water!) and it is also soluble in water.

Just use the resulting solution and don't worry about any small differences in volume.

Willie Jan · Mar 20, 2007

so it won't help me to hang above the solution and have a sniff....

Thanks for the answers guys!

GeorgesGiralt · Mar 20, 2007

Willie,
Often, a formula calls for say 100 CC water, then product one, then product 2 ... and last sentence read water up to 500 cc.
So if you add a liquid instead of a powder, this makes no difference at all. When you add a powder the total volume change also.
The only problem will be if you plan to use say 50cc phenidone mix in 100 cc final solution volume. Here the alcool volume won't be negligible...
So do not worry about the final volume.

How to Phenidone mixing...

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