How to meter properly.

baachitraka said:

Yes, I am still at the origin of the learning curve.

I am still wondering what other color filters are necessary for landscape photography when shooting black-and-white.

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I'd suggest a red, a yellow, and a polarizer would be plenty to start. The effects are evident just looking through the filters, with a bit of practice you'll be fine.

It's not all about color response though. In your examples above composing differently would work too. Maybe use a tree or lamppost in the foreground to cover/fill that blank sky area.

If you're going to start developing your own films, don't make any adjustments on the basis of these results - wait until you get the results from your own development.

Labs regularly overdevelop B&W films, especially when they're dealing with amateurs, because amateurs tend to underexpose their films because of poor exposure technique. So, rather than tell their amateur clients that they don't know how to make good exposures (because it makes for bad customer relations), they often compensate for the typical underexposure without saying anything...
Similarly, the best 'pro' labs will often keep records regarding a professional clients exposure technique because it's not unusual for a photographer to over or underexpose by a precise amount all the time. This isn't to say the lab or the photographer is wrong, it may mean that the photographer's light meter consistently underexposes...

Here is an example of covering a blank sky. http://www.flickr.com/photos/halophoto/615534665/

markbarendt said:

Here is an example of covering a blank sky. http://www.flickr.com/photos/halophoto/615534665/

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I have some samples which were shot on the same day and the difference is Sun was behind me...

baachitraka said:

I have some samples which were shot on the same day and the difference is Sun was behind me...

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Here is one...

Cool, so what you have proved is that the lighting is the issue.

With your center weighted meter you can even measure for this. (You don't even need to take a picture.)

With the sun behind you, point the camera at the sky measure then point the camera at your subject, how much difference is there?

Now turn around and do it again, is there a bigger difference?

markbarendt said:

Cool, so what you have proved is that the lighting is the issue.

With your center weighted meter you can even measure for this. (You don't even need to take a picture.)

With the sun behind you, point the camera at the sky measure then point the camera at your subject, how much difference is there?

Now turn around and do it again, is there a bigger difference?

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I will try in this weekend...now I am hunting for good yellow, orange and red filters.

The best way is to buy an incident meter, next is to use a gray card for exposure, third would be If you have a patch of grass, meter on that, lock the exposure or just use manual exposure and it will give you an almost perfect exposure.

DaveO

markbarendt said:

Given the examples, I don't think that exposure is actually the issue.

I say this because the main subject matter actually looks nice and the sky in the scene was described by baachitraka as pretty clear.

baachitraka I'm going to guess that you expected a darker sky, not more detail.

I'd also bet that if color film had been used here the sky would be a nice blue not the blank white area it shows here.

If my assumptions are right using a say a red filter to get a darker sky might actually be the fix.

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There are no sharp, distinct shadows cast by the people in the square--hardly what you'd expect from a clear sky. I vote for overcast conditions that led to exposure issues.

CGW said:

There are no sharp, distinct shadows cast by the people in the square--hardly what you'd expect from a clear sky. I vote for overcast conditions that led to exposure issues.

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It is though exactly what you would expect from open shade.

CGW said:

There are no sharp, distinct shadows cast by the people in the square--hardly what you'd expect from a clear sky. I vote for overcast conditions that led to exposure issues.

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It was very clear sky on that day, but I shot in the evening.

Drop a green in the middle there and you have the whole range - be wary of the red though. As much as I love it, the effect can get a little too dramatic if you are still trying for "normal" looking shots.

nhemann said:

Drop a green in the middle there and you have the whole range - be wary of the red though. As much as I love it, the effect can get a little too dramatic if you are still trying for "normal" looking shots.

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I will experiment with yellow filter esp., during sun set and see what I will get...but, I do not know which filter to get. There are yellow, medium yellow and slight yellow...

Just go with a #8 yellow (promaster calls it a Y2) and you'll be good to go. The others will just give you more of less of the same effect, though less over all than if you jumped to the next color.

Get al three. You will find a job for each one. In terms of metering; I don`t trust camera meters. I use Gossen hand held and I take incident lights.

Pumalite said:

Get al three. You will find a job for each one. In terms of metering; I don`t trust camera meters. I use Gossen hand held and I take incident lights.

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Well, another big problem with built-in needle meter is that it is not visible at-all during night.

I would like to have a good analog hand-held meter, preferably with a timer.

In the mean-time I am getting use to zone system, it is kind of cool except have to carry a sheet of paper all the time.

It is unbelievable that zone system is so accurate that I wanted to get use to it and forget about the meters. Today, I tested with digital film, digital SLR and built-in meter from my Olympus OM-1n.

Test scenario: IS0 400 and Indoor.

My Zone system falls under

- Zone 6(ISO 400): Brightly lit home interiors at night.

That read on chart(Zone 6 and ISO 400): f/2.8 and 1/30 sec.

- Digital film EOS 650: Spot on.
- Digital SLR EOS 450D : Spot on(occasionally tend to + or -1/3)
- Olympus: Wrong values(1/2 stop)

Please, share your experience.

What batteries are you using in your Olympus?
The original OM1 required the 1.35 volt mercury batteries. You are proably using 1.5 volt alkaline or silver oxide.
You need to make a half-stop asjustment to the ISO when using the olympus. (I forget if you need to go low or high)
Also, make sure to use silver oxide batteries not alkaline.

darinwc said:

What batteries are you using in your Olympus?
The original OM1 required the 1.35 volt mercury batteries. You are proably using 1.5 volt alkaline or silver oxide.
You need to make a half-stop asjustment to the ISO when using the olympus. (I forget if you need to go low or high)
Also, make sure to use silver oxide batteries not alkaline.

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I am using mercury batteries rated at 1.35v ;-) I'm aware of this and was looking for an adapter which has a diode but then I found one 1.35v in e-bay.

It was a surprise for me, I just looked the chart and set the shutter and aperture. Chart is dead right(Zone-6).

It also described average light indoors, which comes under Zone-5 and you won't believe how accurate they are.

Meters are suggestions. The ISO standard for calibration of meters by manufacturers allows THEM to choose so-called Constants within a range of values, the K value for reflected light meter and the C value for incident light meter. Read about them in this article on Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_meter

wiltw said:

Meters are suggestions. The ISO standard for calibration of meters by manufacturers allows THEM to choose so-called Constants within a range of values, the K value for reflected light meter and the C value for incident light meter. Read about them in this article on Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_meter

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I was only surprised about the accuracy of zone system(no magic).

My Olympus is 30 years old already. Give the age, deviation is acceptable.

baachitraka said:

It is unbelievable that zone system is so accurate that I wanted to get use to it and forget about the meters. Today, I tested with digital film, digital SLR and built-in meter from my Olympus OM-1n.

Test scenario: IS0 400 and Indoor.

My Zone system falls under

- Zone 6(ISO 400): Brightly lit home interiors at night.

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You probably mean EV rather than "zone".

You mean a table like this:
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm#Light Intensity Chart

and one like this to go with it:
http://files.meetup.com/244933/EV Table.png

In photographic parlance the "zone system" is something different.

As far as relying on the tables for night exposure or indoor exposures, I find it totally unreliable if you use slides. If you use negatives you have more room for error and once you become experienced tables can certainly work.

Generally speaking, "tables" are generally reliable if outside (daylight) using negatives ("sunny f/16").

EDIT: EV are generally given for ISO 100. So "Brightly lit home interiors at night" would be EV 6 at ISO 100. That means EV 8 at ISO 400. That means either your room was EV6 and you overexposed it 2 stops (which can be no problem using negatives) or the room was not so "brightly lit" as what the table writer meant.

So rather than the "table system" being unbelievably accurate, it's the exposure latitude of negatives toward overexposure which is unbelievably forgiving

baachitraka said:

I am using mercury batteries rated at 1.35v ;-) I'm aware of this and was looking for an adapter which has a diode but then I found one 1.35v in e-bay.

It was a surprise for me, I just looked the chart and set the shutter and aperture. Chart is dead right(Zone-6).

It also described average light indoors, which comes under Zone-5 and you won't believe how accurate they are.

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I use Air Zinc; rated at 1.3 volts; + metal ring to fit

How to meter properly

Light meters are calibrated to 18% gray. An old but still good metering method is to carry an 18% gray card and take your reading from it. In some circumstances, like copy work, additional adjustments have to be made. If you point your meter at a part of the subject which is approximately 18% gray and expose accordingly then the lighter and darker tones will fall into place properly. If the lighting is very high or very low in contrast then some additional adjustments might be needed. This all assumes that developing of the film and printing of the negatives are done with some care. There are four basic types of metering for reflected light: average, center weighted, spot and segmented. All of these willl work if used properly but each requires a different technique. With average metering you need to point the camera toward a part of the scene which is not too influenced by a very bright area like the sky or by a dark area like the foreground. With center weighted metering the same technique will work. With a spot meter you really need to find a middle tone or your exposure will be off. Segmented or patterned metering solves most but not all of these exposure problems. For a beginner, back lighting, like buildings against a bright sky, is difficult. Even with more advanced techniques of exposure and developing there are scenes which have too wide a range of brightness for all parts of a scene to be rendered properly. In these cases you will want to expose for the most important areas. I use avariety of cameras so I have to adjust my metering technique for each one. The Canon F-1 has 12 degree spot metering. This is the easiest system for me. I just need to meter off of a mid tone. If there is no mid tone then I will make an adjustment. With print film if the subject is bright white I will open up 2 stops. If the suject is very dark I may close down 1 stop. The Minolta X-700 has center weighted metering. When I use it with back lit situations I will tilt the camera down, hold the exposure lock button down, tilt back up and then shoot. The Pentax Spotmatic has average metering. This is the most difficult for me. In some situations I will tilt down for metering and at other times I will use the sunny 16 (1/film speed at f/16) rule. Some cameras have both spot and average or center weighted metering. The Mamiya 500DTL and 1000DTL switch back and forth between average and spot. The Olympus OM2000 switches back and forth between center weighted and spot. With a little practice and careful lab work you can learn how to make any metering system work for you.

It's been said here many times : The 'sunny 16 rule' doesn't work in Northern Europe.

I know works in the USA but there's lots of places where it simply doesn't hold. Please guys, stop repeating it here or at least qualify what you're saying more carefully. Once a beginner has latched on to this idea, it can be very difficult to dissuade them of it and as a consequence it tends to make them suspicious of further advice - mystifying photography rather than clarifying it.

There are very few things said on APUG that are plain wrong. Disagreements here can usually be put down to different yet equally valid approaches. Sunny 16 isn't like that, it doesn't work in a large slice of the world and should be treated with great caution.