How to make your own Ground Glass....

Dave Parker · May 9, 2005

jdef said:
Dave is right when he writes:

but what he doesn't say is once you've purchased the materials to do it and taken the time to learn one correct way to do it (there are many), you'll never have to buy another GG from him or anyone else. As I noted, some people like to make things with their hands, and learning to make a GG might appeal to those people the same way that making BTZS type tubes or lensboards, or any of the other DIY projects that could be avoided by buying from a manufacturer does. My method for grinding glasses differs from the one described by Ryan, and if there is a problem with reproducing that description here, I would be happy to post a description of my method for those who want to make their own GGs. Compared to making a really good print, making a really good ground glass is a cake walk.

Jay

Jay,

I have a question for you, why is it every single thread you get involved in you take the opposite side of anyone else?

I am just curious, in the over a year that I have been involved in this website, I have never ever seen you on a positive side of a conversation.

As far as them never buying another screen from me or anyone else, that is fine, lots of people like to do things themselves, I am one in particular that really enjoys doing things myself, but many people don't want to or have the time to do it themselves, which is the reason that there are businesses that do it.

I have helped numerous people make their own ground glass, and in the past have sold many kits so people could make their own ground glass.

Our current process is a proprietary and patended process, so people grinding their own does not bother any of us in the glass grinding business, what as far a commercial companies, there are really not that many.

My major concern on this thread was the copyrighted material that was posted and there was no credit given to the author of the article, which amounts to theft, which does open Sean, the owner up to liability.

Grind away, if there is something we can help with, by all means, drop us a note and if we can help on your DIY project, we will help out.

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

Tom Hoskinson · May 9, 2005

jdef said:
...if there is a problem with reproducing that description here, I would be happy to post a description of my method for those who want to make their own GGs.
Jay

I don't think anyone has a problem with reproducing a process description, Jay.

The problem that I and others have is with someone reproducing a published process description without attribution to the originating source and/or author.

In short, we don't support plagarism.

MattCarey · May 9, 2005

When I got my mini-speed graphic I thought, "$15 for a little tiny lensboard! I can make it myself in the shop." I did. I don't want to again.

At some point in life time>money for many people. The math is simple, 4x5 glass @$15 (shipped) is cheaper than the time involved in getting the supplies, making the glass, storing the supplies...

Of course, I could just take the glass down to the shop and blast away with a sandblaster. Really cheap. Probably not very good. I don't want to experiment.

We wouldn't be doing analogue photography if there wasn't a bit of the tinkerer in each of us. We certainly wouldn't be workin with antique field/press/view cameras. We will all make our own choices. For me it is clear--don't break the glass on my cameras.

Matt

P.s.

Ryan--you really should either edit or post a reply that states where you got the information for your post. Even if it isn't copywrited, it is the correct thing to do. If it is really copyrighted, you are putting the owner of the site in a bad position by hosting your comment.

Flotsam · May 9, 2005

I took a moment to go to http://satinsnowglass.com one evening.
A few weeks later, the postman drops a nicely finished GG in my mailbox that drops into my back perfectly and is a massive improvement over my Toyo OEM glass. All at a price that was well worth the effort saved. If I wanted to make a hobby out of grinding glass, I suppose that I'd take it up.

It never occurred to me that I couldn't make my own GG (I'm sure that I could make all my own shoelaces given the proper materials and equipment, too), it just never occurred to me to want to.

MattCarey · May 9, 2005

Flotsam said:
It never occurred to me that I couldn't make my own GG (I'm sure that I could make all my own shoelaces given the proper materials and equipment, too), it just never occurred to me to want to.

I wish I could have put it so accurately and succinctly.

Matt

MattCarey · May 9, 2005

Loose Gravel said:
Here's the article, "How To Ground Your Own Glass" by Dick Dokas, that appeared in Photo Techniques in May/June 2003.

http://www.dokasphotos.com/techniques/ground_glass/

Here's a line from the article:

"Window glass, also known as float glass, is made by pouring molten glass on a layer of pure molten tin and often you will see wave patterns in the resulting glass"

Not all float glass is the same. Float glass can be extremely flat. Float glass is sometimes used as the disks in hard-drives. The flatness there is way beyond what is needed for ground glass. Wavyness can come from the heat-treatment.

One thing I am pretty sure that the good people at Satin Snow do is start with flat (or, at least, flatter than average) glass. Do I want to experiment and find out which is better?

Matt

Dave Parker · May 9, 2005

I apologize then Jay, I have not problem at all with you in any way..

Bye, Bye.

dave

gbroadbridge · May 10, 2005

Satinsnow said:
Jay,

My major concern on this thread was the copyrighted material that was posted and there was no credit given to the author of the article, which amounts to theft, which does open Sean, the owner up to liability.
[...]
Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

No offense Dave, but why do you mention that Sean may be liable for copyright infringement? There is no liability at all for Sean. The liabiity rests with the poster.

It is worthwhile remembering that Sean is in New Zealand, not in the USA.

Graham.

User Removed · May 10, 2005

Sorry about posting the Ground Glass information and not quoting who it was from. A friend of mine sent it out in an email to several of his photographer friends...so I decided to share it with some people here.

I did not think it would cause a problem. Sorry.

User Removed · May 10, 2005

As you can see, I have only 12 posts here, and I am fairly new to message boards. I did not know I was breaking some E-Law, or some ethical law by sharing and email I got from a friend. I did not know who wrote the article, and nor did I care...I just wanted to share it with anyone interested in knowing a process.

This was not intended to become an arguement over which ground glass is better, brighter, faster, easier or anything. It was just a post to show people that you CAN make your own ground glass, and althought it may not be as cheep, or as good as some brand name glass...someone might have still enjoyed it.

Sorry,

Ryan McIntosh

jmdavis · May 10, 2005

Ryan,

I enjoyed it. I think that your friend actually got it from www.philsan.com/ground_glass.htm. I was impressed by the work that this guy has done with his cameras and his intention to build an 8x10 enlarger.

The reasons that one might like to make their own gg are the same as those that motivated Dobson to grind telescope mirrors from porthole covers. Sure, there are easier ways to get them, but when you have time, raw materials, and patience there might not be a "better" way to get them.

I built the countertops in my darkroom using melanine, 2x2's and 1/4" oak strips for edging. I could have spent alot of money on custom counters (I could find no affordable countertops without a backsplash). The first one took me less than an hour to plan, and construct. The second took less than 20 minutes. What I gained, was the knowledge that I could build something that works well, looks good, and costs little. The most expensive single part was the oak strips that I used for edging. Total costs for 1 48" counter and 1 36" counter $33 ($15 for a corner damaged piece of Melanine, $2 to have the store precut it to the sizes I wanted, $16 for the oak strips,. I had 2 10' 2x2's at the house). I'm still left with two more pieces of melanine to use for other projects.

So, while I fully plan to order a GG from Satin Snow, I may just try to grind one on some rainy weekend.

Mike

modafoto · May 10, 2005

Satinsnow said:
...but I can tell you by the time you purchase all the materials to do it and also the time to actually learn the correct way to do it, you will have more invested that it takes to purchase one from me

It may be cheaper to buy one from you, but it may also be fun to do it yourself.
I have not grinded glass, but I have built flight cases and transport cases for music gear. I was expensive because I had to buy both ordinary tools, power tools and drills, saws, workbench etc. But now I have a somewhat large tool collection that can be used in a lot of other projects than what I bought them for. So now my DIY projects are getting cheaper and cheaper as I have almost all the tools needed.

And when building cases it is a joy to be able to build them EXACTLY as you want them. Having a manufacturer build them for you is too expensive for me.

But yes: It is expensive in the beginning.

bobfowler · May 10, 2005

Flotsam said:
<snip>
It never occurred to me that I couldn't make my own GG (I'm sure that I could make all my own shoelaces given the proper materials and equipment, too), it just never occurred to me to want to.

Neal hit the nail on the head.

I have training in camera repair, but I don't CLA all of my own shutters anymore because of time issues. I send the vast majority of them to Carol Miller and she does the work just as well (if not better) than I would, at a cost that is very reasonable. The only time I do a CLA is if I have to make an actual repair that just can't wait - and that's only happened twice.

I found Dave and his SatinSnow GG via ebay just in time, I was rebuilding my 5X7 and my GG was horrible! I could have bought the materials and made my own, but I don't want to get involved in the glass grinding process. It's a matter of priorities - I'd much rather spend my "shop time" building camera components I can't get from another source.

Dave Parker · May 10, 2005

gbroadbridge said:
No offense Dave, but why do you mention that Sean may be liable for copyright infringement? There is no liability at all for Sean. The liabiity rests with the poster.

It is worthwhile remembering that Sean is in New Zealand, not in the USA.

Graham.

Hi Graham,

the internet is a funny place, while Sean resides in New Zealand, the servers that apug runs on reside in the US, where in the liability can reside.

And again, I reinterate, I was not saying don't grind your own glass, and we have helped others to grind there own screens, which again can be fun, there are many different ways to arrive at the goal of making a screen, and sometimes in photography, the journy can be more fun than the goal.

Dave

jovo · May 10, 2005

I think there was an article in View Camera a few years ago that discussed grinding your own screen. I recall that it discussed the 'typical' way to do it, and a much better way which yielded a brighter, and easier to use screen. I though it was interesting at the time, but I was using MF and had no need to make my own GG.

Now that I do use LF, i replaced the OE glass with Dave's SatinSnow screen. It's excellent and, even though I could have poked around till I found the VC article, the price for Dave's was waaaay to good to do it myself. As long as this forum keeps Dave busy with interesting threads and the chatroom, he probably won't notice what he still can't afford from the Sharper Image catalog let alone an AUDI TT or the like. So....shhhhhh. Keep 'm busy here.

sanking · May 10, 2005

RyanMcIntoshPhoto said:
As you can see, I have only 12 posts here, and I am fairly new to message boards. I did not know I was breaking some E-Law, or some ethical law by sharing and email I got from a friend. I did not know who wrote the article, and nor did I care...I just wanted to share it with anyone interested in knowing a process.

This was not intended to become an argument over which ground glass is better, brighter, faster, easier or anything. It was just a post to show people that you CAN make your own ground glass, and although it may not be as cheep, or as good as some brand name glass...someone might have still enjoyed it.

Sorry,

Ryan McIntosh

Actually I don't think that Ryan's summary of this particular method of making a ground glass comes even close to the plagiarism, and much less infringement of copyright laws.

That is just my opinion, but having spent a lot of my life reading and evaluating the writings of students I know something about plagiarism, and as a writer I am very sensitive to the issue of intellectual property rights.

What seems likely in this case is just what Ryan said, i.e. he shared information he received in an email, apparently ignorant of the original source of the information (which I believe was an article in View Camera magazine). And the summary nature of what he wrote, compared to the details in the original article, is not even a close call as regards plagiarism.

Whether folks want to make or buy their ground glasses is another issue I won't touch. However, having made ground glasses by several different methods I can say for certain that the method described in the article in View Camera is capable of excellent results.

Sandy

jmdavis · May 10, 2005

Sandy,

Ryan's posting is a direct pickup of www.philsan.com/ground_glass.htm. Of course Ryan didn't know that since he received the information via email from a friend. So while it is plagarized, I think that it was posted without that knowledge.

But, the legal definitions are for others to worry about.

Mike

sanking · May 10, 2005

jmdavis said:
Sandy,

Ryan's posting is a direct pickup of www.philsan.com/ground_glass.htm. Of course Ryan didn't know that since he received the information via email from a friend. So while it is plagarized, I think that it was posted without that knowledge.

But, the legal definitions are for others to worry about.

Mike

The information Ryan shared does appear to have been picked up at that site. But it is not plarariasm on Ryan's part since he told us of his source, i.e. his friend. Plagiarism is copying or imitating the thoughts or words or someone else and passing them off as your own. Ryan did not do that since he told us the source of his information.

Legal matters regarding copyright and intellectual property rights are another issue, but frankly the information at www.philsan.com/ground_glass.htm is so similar to what I recall from the View Camera article that if there are any issue of this type I would suggest that Ryan is at the back of the pack of those who might be held accountable legally.

Sandy

Kirk Keyes · May 10, 2005

In reference to a post by JDef:

Satinsnow said:
I am just curious, in the over a year that I have been involved in this website, I have never ever seen you on a positive side of a conversation.

The positive side of a conversation may depend on which side of the conversation you stand on...

Kirk Keyes · May 10, 2005

argus said:
Don't just copy text without giving credit to the author.

Even more than that - the web page the material appears to have been lifted from includes the following:

All photographs on this website copyrighted 1995-2003 to Phil McCourt or Sandi McCourt. They may not be reproduced in any form without their written consent..

The copyright owner of the material that was stolen for use in the original post was made it clear that it cannot be reproduced here and it should be removed. Intentional or not, appears to violate the rights of the owner of the material.

User Removed · May 10, 2005

It clearly says "ALL PHOTOGRAPHS...". Someone stealing someones photograph and trying to pass it over as their own, or worse...using it for advertisment ect. That is clearly wrong.

I did not copy and paste any of his photography here did I? I just got an email from a friend who I guess was looking at his site...and knew I was building my own 8x10 camera and thought I would be interested.

Geeez. Some of you people here take things WAY to seriously. Chill out please. If this thread has to be deleted...then fine! I was just trying to share something that I felt some people might like okay.

Flotsam · May 10, 2005

RyanMcIntoshPhoto said:
I was just trying to share something that I felt some people might like okay.

That is exactly how I took it. Sometimes the anonimity of the 'net makes people pre-emptivley critical and suspicious. Keep participating on APUG and this thread will disappear and never be thought of again and there is so much to contribute to and gain from the site.

jmdavis · May 10, 2005

RyanMcIntoshPhoto said:
It clearly says "ALL PHOTOGRAPHS...". Someone stealing someones photograph and trying to pass it over as their own, or worse...using it for advertisment ect. That is clearly wrong.

I did not copy and paste any of his photography here did I? I just got an email from a friend who I guess was looking at his site...and knew I was building my own 8x10 camera and thought I would be interested.

Geeez. Some of you people here take things WAY to seriously. Chill out please. If this thread has to be deleted...then fine! I was just trying to share something that I felt some people might like okay.

Ryan,

Like Sandy, I don't think that you did anything wrong. You certainly had no intent to use another's work without permission.

I was merely trying to point out where the information had come from. I knew that I had something in my bookmarks. As I noted last night, I think that the information is good and I thank you for sharing it.

Mike

How to make your own Ground Glass....

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