How to load 120mm film on Contessa Nettel Cocarette IV Luxus correctly?

[sunhouwang]

Hi, there.
Recently, acquired a Contessa Nettel Cocarette IV Luxus camera, it's origin for 122 films, and I make a 122 to 120 spool adapter, now can shot 120mm as usual.
Now I have a question is how to load 120mm film correctly on this camera, as there two side bars in the back cassette, which way is right ? over the side bars or under the side bars?

Deane

 

[sunhouwang]

And which point is the right focal plane? blue or green arrow?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The film goes under the top bars, but unlike in your photo, have the film run "over" the film roller bar.

 

[sunhouwang]

The film goes under the top bars, but unlike in your photo, have the film run "over" the film roller bar.


View attachment 393568

Thanks, so the green arrow is the focal plane, right?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

The film touches that, so yes.

 

[MattKing]

For clarity, it is 120 film, not 122mm film.
The 120 is just a designation - it doesn't have anything to do with the dimensions of the film format.
Andrew is correct about the focal plane that you will end up with.
But you should take into account that there may be markings on the camera - such as the distance and aperture numbers - that are based on the other plane - the one pointed to by your blue pointer.
So you may have to re-calibrate those in order to use the 120 film.

 

[JPD]

Zeiss Ikon Cocarette cameras instruction manual, user manual

Zeiss Ikon Cocarette cameras user manual

butkus.org

The instructions manual. The film goes on top of the rollers but under the folded metal bars. The lower one has a square cut out for the numbers on the backing paper on the original 122-film. It won't work the same with 120- film, but the green arrow points to the focal plane.

 

[Romanko]

Yes, you insert the film between the parts shown by the blue and the green arrows. I have a Cocarette for type 116 film. It was "converted" by the previous owner by using type 116 take-up spool, threading the film inside the rails (see the blue arrow) and just throwing the 120 type spool with the film inside the camera. To my surprise, this contraption worked to a certain extent.

You will need to come up with a solution to keep the film flat given the extra length and the lack of support along the horizontal sides of the frame. Film flatness is not great in Cocarettes even when you use the right film size.

How are you going to align the frames? As I understand the red window will be in the wrong place.

With my Cocarette I find it much easier to load the film when the camera is open and the bellows are extended. Otherwise the folded bellows get in the way of the film transport part shown in your photos.

Good luck with your project!

 

[Romanko]

I thought you can replace the round plug at the back of the camera with a 3D printed part that has a red window or with some luck borrow this part from a different model Cocarette like Zeiss Ikon type 519/14 (see photo). The window will align with 6x6 frame numbers on 120 film. The original frame width is 140 mm so you should be able to comfortably fit three 6x6 frames. You will use frame numbers 2, 5, 8 and 11 to get four exposures per 120 type roll.

 

[sunhouwang]

Yes, you insert the film between the parts shown by the blue and the green arrows. I have a Cocarette for type 116 film. It was "converted" by the previous owner by using type 116 take-up spool, threading the film inside the rails (see the blue arrow) and just throwing the 120 type spool with the film inside the camera. To my surprise, this contraption worked to a certain extent.

You will need to come up with a solution to keep the film flat given the extra length and the lack of support along the horizontal sides of the frame. Film flatness is not great in Cocarettes even when you use the right film size.

How are you going to align the frames? As I understand the red window will be in the wrong place.

With my Cocarette I find it much easier to load the film when the camera is open and the bellows are extended. Otherwise the folded bellows get in the way of the film transport part shown in your photos.

Good luck with your project!

The Cocarette in hand is a hundred-year camera, in mint condition, the reason I bought it is the pano film size format.
Yes, I also notice the tiny issue when loading the back cassette into the camera body, as your experience, it's much easier when the camera front plate is in open status.

 

[sunhouwang]

I thought you can replace the round plug at the back of the camera with a 3D printed part that has a red window or with some luck borrow this part from a different model Cocarette like Zeiss Ikon type 519/14 (see photo). The window will align with 6x6 frame numbers on 120 film. The original frame width is 140 mm so you should be able to comfortably fit three 6x6 frames. You will use frame numbers 2, 5, 8 and 11 to get four exposures per 120 type roll.

View attachment 393631

View attachment 393630

Thanks for your information, is Ikon 519/14 using the same round plug with Cocarette IV? and is there a latch to open/close the red window?

 

[sunhouwang]

what about type 514/14? is it using the same size round plug?

 

[Romanko]

is Ikon 519/14 using the same round plug with Cocarette IV?

The plug is interchangeable between types 517/15 (type 116) and 519/2 (type 120) which I have. I assume the parts were standardized between Zeiss Ikon camera models (they were exceptional engineers) but I don't have type 514/14 to confirm this.

There is no cover for the red window.

Your camera is a collector's item. I would be very cautious modifying or even using it on a regular basis. Given the efforts required to convert it to type 120 film it might be easier to custom-make type 122 roll film. There are several successful attempts reported on this forum at making large-format roll film using wide aerial film. If you only intend to shoot a few rolls with this camera this (and sourcing Verichrome Pan in type 122) would be the way to go.

 

[MattKing]

If you have any 122 film and backing paper, one can re-use the backing paper with 120 film in the same manner that people do that with 35mm and 120 backing paper in a 120 camera.
For that matter, you can do the same with 35mm film and the 122 backing paper.

 

[sunhouwang]

The plug is interchangeable between types 517/15 (type 116) and 519/2 (type 120) which I have. I assume the parts were standardized between Zeiss Ikon camera models (they were exceptional engineers) but I don't have type 514/14 to confirm this.

There is no cover for the red window.

Your camera is a collector's item. I would be very cautious modifying or even using it on a regular basis. Given the efforts required to convert it to type 120 film it might be easier to custom-make type 122 roll film. There are several successful attempts reported on this forum at making large-format roll film using wide aerial film. If you only intend to shoot a few rolls with this camera this (and sourcing Verichrome Pan in type 122) would be the way to go.

If no cover for red windows? how to avoid the film exposed when shooting?
And I would search info of using aerial film on this camera, I guess to get some 122 spools at first.

 

[sunhouwang]

If you have any 122 film and backing paper, one can re-use the backing paper with 120 film in the same manner that people do that with 35mm and 120 backing paper in a 120 camera.
For that matter, you can do the same with 35mm film and the 122 backing paper.

It's a smart way of reusing the 122 backing paper, and matching with the original red window.

 

[MattKing]

If no cover for red windows? how to avoid the film exposed when shooting?

The backing paper does the job for most cameras.
Until recently, I was using a 120 film pinhole camera that didn't have a cover and didn't even have a window. It worked fine with just a hole there.
The major exception would be cameras that have poor light baffling or where the parts near the back aren't closely fitted.
I would only be concerned with most cameras if they spend long periods of time out in bright light.
Or if the 122 backing paper is in poor shape.

 

[sunhouwang]

Great, no need too much worries.

 

[Romanko]

And I would search info of using aerial film on this camera, I guess to get some 122 spools at first.

There's a video "Making and using 122 film" by James Harr on Youtube.
Alternatively, you can use a single sheet of film or photographic paper in this camera.

Developing 122 type film is another challenge you'll have to solve. I developed a "mystery" roll of Verichrome Pan in a 3-reel Paterson tank by adapting the reel as described in this blog post:

Kodak 3A 122 Film Camera Sees First Use After 50-100 Years

daguerreotype tintype analog photography

thephotopalace.blogspot.com

 

[sunhouwang]

There's a video "Making and using 122 film" by James Harr on Youtube.
Alternatively, you can use a single sheet of film or photographic paper in this camera.

Developing 122 type film is another challenge you'll have to solve. I developed a "mystery" roll of Verichrome Pan in a 3-reel Paterson tank by adapting the reel as described in this blog post:

Kodak 3A 122 Film Camera Sees First Use After 50-100 Years

daguerreotype tintype analog photography

thephotopalace.blogspot.com

Video watched, the comment of DIY backing paper sounds constructive.
I also contact dealer of Ilford, who can help order below formats, the first two ones are roll film, last one is sheet film.
FP4+ 9cmx50f
HP5+ 70mm x50ft
HP5+ 3.25x5.5in 25

 

[Romanko]

Do you know the actual width of the film? (3.25" is the frame height, film width is a few millimetres larger).

You will have to wait till the next Ilford Ultra Large Format campaign. Custom format film is fairly expensive.