How to get warmly toned prints?

[Cybertrash]

Hi everyone,

I'd like to make prints of some portraits I've done and I'd like them to have a fairly warm tone. So I went ahead and bought some Ilford Warmtone paper and some Compard warmtone paper developer (similar to Neuotol WA) and made some prints... And they're not particularly warmtone at all... At best I get a slight olive green tone, but that's all, what am I doing wrong? I'd really like to avoid having to use bleach & sepia toner.

 

[Ian Grant]

Easy, warm tone paper, warm tone developer, short development times or more dilute developer.

Over development kills the warmth, so over expose and under develop - it only works though with warm tone papers.

Ian

 

[Cybertrash]

So you're saying that I should underdevelop? Because I have all the other things you're referring to. That goes against everything I've heard about how you should always let prints develop to completion or you won't get good blacks...

 

[spijker]

Tone with Selenium toner. Warmtone paper with warmtone developer and Se toning should give you brownish tones. You'll have to experiment a bit with the dilution and time.

 

[Ian Grant]

So you're saying that I should underdevelop? Because I have all the other things you're referring to. That goes against everything I've heard about how you should always let prints develop to completion or you won't get good blacks...

There's no such thing as developing prints to completion, anyone say it is wrong. Do you develop your films to completion ? It's the same thing.

I'm not saying you should under-develop, I'm saying you should develop for the tonal colour you're after, quite different but that may be for less time or with amore dilute developer for the same time as a Neutral tone print. That#s something you have to get your head around

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

Tone with Selenium toner. You'll have to experiment a bit with the dilution and time.

That's irrelevant to the OP's questions. But should be part of the process.

Ian

 

[Gerald C Koch]

If you wish warm tones in a print then use a sulfide based toner. No need for special papers or developers. (At one time warm tone papers and developers were common but as the analog method continues to contract they have become scarce.) There are several choices for warm toners; categorized as direct and indirect. A direct toner consists of the use of a single solution. An example would be the Hypo-Alum toner. Indirect toners consists of a bleach and then redevelopment in a toning solution.

Selenium toning can be tricky since certain papers can produce a purplish tone rather than a brown one. This could be rather unflattering for portraits.

The common term "developing to completion" can be a bit confusing especially since it is not technically accurate. Obviously a print developed to completion would be completely black. What it describes is an inflection point in the development curve (density vs time) where the rate of development slows considerably. The method has been described several times n APUG. Check the archives. Manufacturer's development times usually use this point as the longer time recommended for paper development. So if the developer manufacturer recommends a 2 to 4 minute time then DTC will occur closer to the 4 min time. I personally have found the method very useful and best for producing deep blacks.

BTW, the inflection point also occurs in film development but is not really useful. In fact if development of a film is extended the characteristic curve will eventually turn downwards. The only person I know of that used something similar for films was William Mortensen who called his method developing to gamma infinity. While much of his work is considered today to be too manipulated he was a talented photographer and darkroom worker.

 

[pentaxuser]

I think it might help the respondents to this thread if the OP was 1) able to say which combination of paper and developer he has seen which gives the warmth he wants or 2) show examples of such prints.

I suspect that the warmth to which he refers is only produced by toning but we won't know until we can see what kind of warmth he expects from paper and developer.

I am not sure why there is a need to avoid toning if that produces the warmth required.

pentaxuser

 

[images39]

I agree with the advice to selenium tone the prints to achieve a noticeably warmer tone with this particular paper. I use Ilford's Warmtone paper (usually with Dektol), and the print tones don't look good to me until I tone them in selenium. In my experience, that particular paper warms up nicely in selenium, particularly in dilutions of 1:15 or stronger.

Dale

 

[StephenT]

I use selenium as a toner as well as protector, but it only works as a toner for me at 1:8 or stronger with really warm tone paper (Seagull Warmtone, not so much Ilford Warmtone), and LPD developer diluted 1:4 or 1:5.

The Ilford warmtone RC doesn't work, to my eye, nearly as well for toning as the Ilford warmtone FB. Is your paper resin coated or fiber?

 

[spijker]

That's irrelevant to the OP's questions. But should be part of the process.

Ian

??? The OP asks "How to get warmly toned prints?". In my experience Se toning does exactly that with warmtone paper and warmtone developer so I think it is very relevant. Attached is a photo of some work prints that I still have of "Kristen at the Mill".
Paper: Adox Variotone Warmtone FB
Developer: Ilford Warmtone
Toner: Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner (KRST) 1+9

Left: untoned, right: 3 min toned, upper: too long toned too my taste. At the bottom there's the "Table and chairs" print which is printed on Ilford Multigrade IV FB in Multigrade developer and KRST 1+9 5 min. For this combination the Se-toner actually cooled down the tone a bit. I think this clearly shows the effect of selenium toner and how neutral tone paper & dev responds very different to warm tone paper & dev. I have no experience with Ilford Multigrade WT FB. I recall that switching from Multigrade dev to Warmtone dev for the Adox paper, it became more responsive to the Se-toner.

Menno

 

[Jim Noel]

There's no such thing as developing prints to completion, anyone say it is wrong. Do you develop your films to completion ? It's the same thing.

I'm not saying you should under-develop, I'm saying you should develop for the tonal colour you're after, quite different but that may be for less time or with amore dilute developer for the same time as a Neutral tone print. That#s something you have to get your head around

Ian

I must disagree. My first job in photography was developing the roll film which came into the store each day. The last hour of the day was spent attaching each roll to clips and hanging it to a large , about 4 feet square, frame. The frame was then lowered into the tank and left overnight. In the morning the film was lifted from the developing tank and processing completed. The developer was D-23 which was never changed as long as I worked at the store, but it was replenished daily. It was a rare negative which didn't print in the automatic printer.
You asked if i develop films to completion. The answer is yes.If i make an exposure in extremely flat light of a flat subject such as dues under heavy clouds, I develop it in heavily used D-23 for 3-5 hours and the contrast pops up so the negative prints easily.

 

[xtolsniffer]

Another vote for selenium toning. I use Fotospeed selenium toner 1+7 dilution (so quite strong). Normal Ilford RC multigrade paper developed in multigrade developer goes very slightly purplish on toning but their warmtone RC goes a lovely warm brown. You can tone in the light and just lift the print when you're happy with the result. It's subtle but beautiful.

 

[Wayne]

For some real warmtone prints make a pre-paid order of maybe ten thousand boxes of Polywarmtone from Adox. Maybe that will kick their production forward so it hits the market again while I'm still upright.

 

[presspass]

Ilford Warmtone RC pearl finish and a fairly strong selenium toner for a minute or more. I have been using this for years and cut the toning time and strength a bit to get the split-tone effect. With a stronger toner solution, the print will get much browner.

 

[R.Gould]

Ilford warmtone paper is not that warm, you can try getting some Fomatone classic, one of the warmest papers around, use either Harman warmtone developer or Fotospeed WT10 at the 1/29 dilution, and your prints will have an old type warm look, almost slightly sepia toned, The only way to get this effect with Ilford warmtone, in my personal experiance, is to lightly sepia tone the prints, you can also try the Adox MCC 220 paper in a warmtone developer, preferably the WT10, which gives a nice warmth, but for warmth nothing touches the Fomatone

 

[Ian Grant]

There's a big differance between wrm toned prints made with warm tone papers and warm tone developers and chemically toned prints, they aren't the same.

Ilfird Warntome, Fomatone Adox MMCC all respond well to development controls to increase warmth with no need to resort to direct toning which gives quite different coloured tones. Seleniun unless done for a lond time is mire subtle.

Ian

 

[R.Gould]

There's a big differance between wrm toned prints made with warm tone papers and warm tone developers and chemically toned prints, they aren't the same.

Ilfird Warntome, Fomatone Adox MMCC all respond well to development controls to increase warmth with no need to resort to direct toning which gives quite different coloured tones. Seleniun unless done for a lond time is mire subtle.

Ian

I agree with the above, but I personally found the Ilford WT paper does not respond to warmtone developer methods, Adox responds very well, but for pure warm tone prints Fomatome paper is the best available, to get the same warmth in Ilford WT you need to lightly tone, I get better results with Adox, but I find the Ilford to be only very slight warm,which is why I very rarely use it,

 

[Ian Grant]

Modern (no cadmium) Warm-tone papers tend to get cooler with age, that seems to happen faster with Ilford Warmtone than other papers like Polywarmtone, MCC etc..

Ian

 

[Jon Shiu]

One thing I've heard, but haven't tried yet is toning with tea.

Jon

 

[cliveh]

Why not use a Thiourea sepia toner kit, where you have an additive to adjust the pH to the warmth of tone you require?

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

Because I have to do that in the garage, and it's cold in there right now.

I dig on Noels method for flat negs, might be worth a try.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

One thing I've heard, but haven't tried yet is toning with tea.

Jon

Technically this is not toning but just creating an overall brown stain on the paper.

 

[esearing]

for a slightly warm tone without toning you can try using Ethol LPD at 1:8. I have never tried it with a warm tone paper but it definitely is warmer than 1:2 or 1:3 on ilford MGFB classic. I also read recently about post development/fix bleaching + redevelop using Pyro developer on prints but it gives a very different feel based on the sample images.

 

[jeffreyg]

Bring back Agfa Portriga Rapid.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/