How to get that dark skin from old day photography?

timeUnit · Nov 30, 2006

I've been experimenting with Ortho film, and it doesn't give me dark enough skin tones. I'm wondering which way to go now.

Do I use a "modern" film like HP5+ with a blue filter? Or maybe some other type of film? Maybe even paper negs?

Coat my own plates is an option, but I only have a 4x5 camera, so the plates will be quite small.

Thanks!

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 30, 2006

That "Dark Skin" was probably from wet-plate photography, either on glass plates or on tintypes. That would be your most likely avenue, to do wet-plate collodion.

timeUnit · Nov 30, 2006

I think it doesn't have so much to do with the "wetness" of the plates, but more with the spectral sensitivity. I have a book by Swedish photographer Karl Lärka, shot around 1915-1925 (I think) that have this special look. I don't think he was using wet plates at the time.

Here's a few of his shots:
http://images.google.se/images?q=ka...-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi

Ole · Nov 30, 2006

Wet plates are not othochromatic, they're blue- and UV-sensitive only. The orthochromatic sensitivity stretches too far into green for the effect you are after.

Try a "minus green" filter - strong magenta.

Joe Lipka · Nov 30, 2006

I might also suggest that dark skin would also result from extended exposure to sunshine without any of the modern day sunscreens. People's complexions were more "ruddy" then than they are now.

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 30, 2006

timeUnit said:
I think it doesn't have so much to do with the "wetness" of the plates, but more with the spectral sensitivity. I have a book by Swedish photographer Karl Lärka, shot around 1915-1925 (I think) that have this special look. I don't think he was using wet plates at the time.

Here's a few of his shots:
http://images.google.se/images?q=ka...-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi

You are correct- but by the time dry-plate came about, the emulsions were more like ortho in their spectral sensitivity. That's why I said wet-plate would be the way to go. Anything else commercially available won't have the mojo to give you the result you're looking for.

Ole · Nov 30, 2006

Around 1915 to 1925, many photographers still used "ordinary plates", i.e. not orthochromatic. Maybe I have a pack somewhere...

George Papantoniou · Nov 30, 2006

Joe Lipka said:
I might also suggest that dark skin would also result from extended exposure to sunshine without any of the modern day sunscreens. People's complexions were more "ruddy" then than they are now.

You can still meet people like that in Egypt (or Creta), if you take the time to travel that far. I wouldn't recommend Creta, though, for it is a far too dangerous place to visit, especially Heraklion, the town some Cretans (especially the ones who live there) believe to be their capital.

timeUnit · Nov 30, 2006

Ole said:
Wet plates are not othochromatic, they're blue- and UV-sensitive only. The orthochromatic sensitivity stretches too far into green for the effect you are after.

Try a "minus green" filter - strong magenta.

Do you mean minus green on pan film or on ortho film? Using a filter on ortho film is not my first choice, as the EI I'm getting is like 6-12. With a strong filter I'm looking at EI 1,5-3...

Ole · Nov 30, 2006

timeUnit said:
Do you mean minus green on pan film or on ortho film? Using a filter on ortho film is not my first choice, as the EI I'm getting is like 6-12. With a strong filter I'm looking at EI 1,5-3...

With an ortho film you can use a minus-green filter; with pan film you'd need a blue colour-separation filter. A minus-green filter will lose about ine to two stops with orto film, a blue colour-separation filter will lose at least four stops with pan film. So the end result is about the same.

timeUnit · Nov 30, 2006

HP5+ minus four stops:

EI 250 > 125 > 64 > 32 > 16

EI 16 is much better than EI 3...

Ole · Nov 30, 2006

"At least" four stops...

bart Nadeau · Nov 30, 2006

find a box, if you can, of Kodak Commercial sheet film. It has only been discontinued in the last 10 or so years and will surely still be good. It is blue sensitive "ordinary" film and should do what you desire.

jstraw · Nov 30, 2006

I'm sure that all the advice about emulsions and light sensitivity is accurate.

I'm also certain that what you're seeing in those images are the effects of increased melanin in the biological emulsions of the subjects, due to increased exposure to UV radiation.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Nov 30, 2006

You can also use a blue-sensitive film like Kodak 5302/2302, which is a print film for cinema. I've used it, though not on portraits, and it's very slow. Somewhere around 4 ASA, but it develops easily in Rodinal. I have a sample of it in my gallery, but I know someone here also used a similar film for portraiture.

Those film give you a lot of halation, I suppose because they were not intended for in-camera use, IDK.

Finally, if you use paper negs, get graded paper, which is blue-sensitive only. VC paper has emulsions for both blue and green, which will give you an ortho look.

Jim Noel · Nov 30, 2006

Have you tried Ilford Ortho Plus?
It will give you more film speed to begin with and then you can apply any filtration you feel will help. I believe, but have not tried, a green filter will produce a more ruddy complexion.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Nov 30, 2006

Jim Noel said:
Have you tried Ilford Ortho Plus?
It will give you more film speed to begin with and then you can apply any filtration you feel will help. I believe, but have not tried, a green filter will produce a more ruddy complexion.

Green light is about as close to our normal impression of luminance as can be, so it won't work. I think I've read somewhere that when portraits were taken with ortho film, models used to have some green touch-ups so that the red parts don't look dark. You need to use the blue/UV part of the spectrum.

timeUnit · Nov 30, 2006

I have thought about Ilford Ortho, but it's not readily available here in Sweden. I've been using Adox Ortho 25 but have had lots of issues with it.

Joe VanCleave · Nov 30, 2006

Paper Negatives

I've been shooting paper negatives in both glass-lensed and pinhole cameras for years. Currently, I use a grade 2 RC paper from Arista as my main 'film' of choice. It has better contrast characteristics than multigrade.

See the picture in this link for an example of skin tones using grade 2 paper:

http://www.f295.org/DIYforum/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?b-bw/m-1153794218/

The young lad in this shot has slightly tan (hispanic) skin tones; the paper negative renders him very 'tropical'. I'm not sure if this is the look you're after, but you may want to try it.

I rate Arista grade 2 RC paper at an EI of 2, for metering purposes. It also does not appear to have much reciprocity failure, because for pinhole purposes I can do exposure times of 10 minutes or longer, with the same metering technique (using EI2) used for glass lensed cameras, and the exposures from both types of cameras come out fine.

Neil Miller · Nov 30, 2006

A book about Hurrell the great Hollywood photographer (Hurrell's Hollywood Portraits, Mark Vieira) says that when he started out (late 1920s) he bought a lot of out-dated Eastman commercial Ortho:

"...which couldn't see the red part of the spectrum and saw too much blue. The cumulative effect was that his subjects looked burnished and exotic..."

In the early 1930s his stock ran out, so he went with Pan Speed Portrait, that gave a creamier look and didn't over-darken the lips. Towards the end of the 30s he changed again, but only those negatives on the outdated ortho film seem to have that really dark, burnished look to them.

I don't think wetplate would help much - I take a lot of wetplate negatives and haven't noticed quite that look, and tintypes have an overall darkness/lower contrast which is once again probably not what you are looking for. Have you tried lith film in-camera and processed with dilute developer? Perhaps coating your own plates would be the way to go?

Regards,
Neil.

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Nov 30, 2006

There you go, that's the thread I was looking for :
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Zhenya (eumenius) has had some pretty good success with blue-sensitive film in portraiture, is that the look that was sought after?

Alan Johnson · Nov 30, 2006

I have portraits of the same model shot on Delta 100 and on Adox Ortho (35mm). The skin tones on the Adox Ortho are darker in part,it does work.IMO to get it to work a model with some red in their skin,typically suntan, is needed.I use a small main light to make some highlights.
There may be depth of field issues with large format.Hollywood photographers used several kilowatts of hotlight to allow them to stop down and a faster flim with a filter may be more convenient if you are using strobes.I believe the filter that best blocks red is actually the cyan.
There is a book Hollywood Portraits by Roger Hicks that suggests lighting setups.

Harry Lime · Nov 30, 2006

What you are seeing is the difference between orthochromatic and panchromatic films.

Orthochromatic film like ADOX 25 or 50 are less sensitive in the red part of the spectrum, causing caucasian skin tones to appear burnished or dark.

See chart:

http://www.jandcphoto.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=1

Panchromatic films like SuperXX, Tri-X, Plus-X etc, that see the entire color-spectrum, did not arrive until the mid 1930's. You can still achieve the ortho look with a panchromatic film by using a very pale blue filter. Roger Hicks explains this process in his excellent portrait book.

http://www.amazon.com/Hollywood-Portraits-Roger-Hicks/dp/0817440208

timeUnit · Dec 1, 2006

mhv said:
There you go, that's the thread I was looking for :
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Zhenya (eumenius) has had some pretty good success with blue-sensitive film in portraiture, is that the look that was sought after?

Something like that, yes.

Ole · Dec 1, 2006

Harry Lime said:
Orthochromatic film like ADOX 25 or 50 are less sensitive in the red part of the spectrum, causing caucasian skin tones to appear burnished or dark.

ADOX 25 and 50 are not orthochromatic. They are "orthopanchromatic", meaning that they have more red sensitivity than ortho, but less than pan.

ADOX Ortho is a "true orthochromatic" film.

You can still achieve the ortho look with a panchromatic film by using a very pale blue filter.

No you can't. You need a strong cyan filter, not a pale blue one.

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