How to get rid of spots on the negatives?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 20, 2018

Please see the negative/scan above.

I'm getting many spots on the negatives (Orwo UN54) developed with home-mixed developer of late. I've been using this developer for some time and only in the recent times the spots have started appearing. I use RO water for preparing the developer concentrate as well as working solution. I stir well after adding the developer concentrate and carbonate solution to water and wait till all the air bubbles die out before pouring the working solution to the tank. I bang the tank hard several times after pouring in the working solution (and also after each round of agitation) to knock off airbells. I have tried presoak, filtering the developer concentrate, filtering the carbonate solution but the spots won't go. I get the spots with both citric acid stop bath and water stop bath. The scanner is fine and I've verified by scanning old negatives. AFIRC I started facing this problem after switching to a different brand of Sodium Carbonate Anhydrous but the producer is known for quality chemicals and claims that Carbonate is 99.9% pure.

John51 · Apr 20, 2018

The amount of gunk needed to do that would be easy to spot in a solution so I'm assuming that the gunk gets to the film in the dark.

It might be precipitate that happens while inside the tank. You could do a dummy process with an empty reel and remove the lid to check the liquid after every inversion/bang on the table. Or develop a test roll in whatever developer you have handy that doesn't have any of the Sodium Carbonate in it. D23 maybe?

Only other thing I can think of is if you use a changing bag. fwir, the rubber innards can start shedding bits when touched. One roll loaded under the bedsheets would test that.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 20, 2018

John51 said:
It might be precipitate that happens while inside the tank. You could do a dummy process with an empty reel and remove the lid to check the liquid after every inversion/bang on the table.

Great suggestion. I'll try this and check if any precipitate is being formed while the working solution is inside the tank. However, I haven't noticed precipitate in the spent working solution at the time of dumping it. Perhaps I should filter the spent working solution and check if it leaves any residue on the filter paper.

John51 said:
Or develop a test roll in whatever developer you have handy that doesn't have any of the Sodium Carbonate in it. D23 maybe?

It could be developer specific issue (and possibly due to the Carbonate). Just now I developed a test roll of the same film (Orwo UN54) in Rodinal and the negatives are at present drying. Will scan the negatives tomorrow and check if there are spots in them.

I also developed a test roll of a different film (Orwo N74+) in the same developer as before and this should tell me if it is a film specific issue.

John51 said:
Only other thing I can think of is if you use a changing bag. fwir, the rubber innards can start shedding bits when touched. One roll loaded under the bedsheets would test that.

I'm using a changing bag and will try your idea.

This was very helpful. Thanks again.

glbeas · Apr 20, 2018

Have you looked at a highly magnified view of a bubble? It might be CO2 formation in the emulsion which can happen if the ph of your water supply turns acidic for any reason.
One other avenue to check is inside the camera itself, there may be particles from a deteriorating seal being picked up by static on the film.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 21, 2018

glbeas said:
Have you looked at a highly magnified view of a bubble? It might be CO2 formation in the emulsion which can happen if the ph of your water supply turns acidic for any reason.

Though water seemed to be fine when I randomly test the pH, I must admit that I didn't check the pH of water at the time of developing the rolls. However, I always check the pH of the working solution and I never saw any acidity in it.

glbeas said:
One other avenue to check is inside the camera itself, there may be particles from a deteriorating seal being picked up by static on the film.

I developed a test roll of Orwo UN54 in Rodinal. Different camera same dark bag. The negatives turned out fine without any spots on them.

I also developed a test roll of a different film Orwo N74+ in the original developer using the same carbonate. Again different camera and same dark bag. This roll also turned to be fine and there're no spots.

So it could be the camera or the developer/film combination. So I'll develop a test roll again and see if the problem persists.

Thanks for all the insightful responses.

lecarp · Apr 21, 2018

The best way to get rid of sports on the negative is probably to avoid photographing them to begin with.

Oops, read that to fast (spots)....lol.

glbeas · Apr 21, 2018

I was talking to another photographer who told me of a film he had similar problem because of the high ambient humidity where he was living. Didnt happen in a drier place. Has the humidity gone up drastically recently where you live?

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 22, 2018

glbeas said:
I was talking to another photographer who told me of a film he had similar problem because of the high ambient humidity where he was living. Didnt happen in a drier place. Has the humidity gone up drastically recently where you live?

We are in the middle of a hot summer here with temperature soaring high. The past few days there have been a couple of showers and high humidity. But strangely the spots seem to affect only Orwo UN54 + developer combination as my last evening's test roll also had some spots.

glbeas · Apr 22, 2018

That sounds like the case, it was only one type of film. I cant remember what it was but he said he quit using it in those situations altogether. I have to wonder if the film was getting moldy.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 23, 2018

glbeas said:
That sounds like the case, it was only one type of film. I cant remember what it was but he said he quit using it in those situations altogether. I have to wonder if the film was getting moldy.

Last evening I developed a test roll of Orwo UN54 and Orwo N74+ together - same camera same dark bag. The former showed many spots and the latter showed none.

So the spots have got to do something with Orwo UN54 film. It could be emulsion quality issue that surfaces only when carbonate is used as the alkali. I'll switch to Rodinal for now as at least the one test roll of Orwo UN54 that I developed in it came out quite well.

Thanks again for all the insightful responses. I became aware of so many different potential reasons for spots and will be careful about them.

RauschenOderKorn · Apr 24, 2018

Which developer are you using? Apparently it is not a good match with the Orwo UN54. Especially looking at the last pic you posted, it is not only white spots but also grey spots.

The recommended developer / developing times are given by the manufacturer here: http://www.filmotec.de/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/V-I-VV-1182.pdf (in German)
The developer does not contain any alkali beyond the sulfite and a small amount of borax, so maybe the ph of your carbonate developer is too high and affects the emulsion.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 25, 2018

RauschenOderKorn said:
Which developer are you using? Apparently it is not a good match with the Orwo UN54. Especially looking at the last pic you posted, it is not only white spots but also grey spots.

I've tried several developers on Orwo UN54:
1. Obsidian Aqua (Catechol+Metabisulphite+Carbonate)
2. Catechol+Sulphite+Carbonate
3. Catechol+Phenidone+Sulphite+Carbonate
4. Rodinal
5. Crawley's FX-1

Spots are observed only in film developed with developer #3 above and not in film developed with the other developers.

maybe the ph of your carbonate developer is too high and affects the emulsion.[/QUOTE said:
Not sure high pH of Carbonate is the reason. Rodinal has high pH and so do the other developers mentioned above.

RauschenOderKorn · Apr 25, 2018

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
3. Catechol+Phenidone+Sulphite+Carbonate

Sounds like yet another pyrocat hd problem.

If you research the forum, there are a few threads with people who have the same problem with Ilford HP5+ since ten years ago.

bestbefore1978 · Apr 25, 2018

It also looks like air bells to me, bubbles adhering to the reel during processing. I had a similar intermittent problem with both b&w and C41 until I introduced a prewash into my process, haven’t had the problem since.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Apr 25, 2018

bestbefore1978 said:
It also looks like air bells to me, bubbles adhering to the reel during processing. I had a similar intermittent problem with both b&w and C41 until I introduced a prewash into my process, haven’t had the problem since.

As I’ve described in an earlier post, I’ve tried prewash too and I bang the tank hard on the surface. But it didn’t solve the problem.

Grampadoug · Jun 16, 2020

Are you using a plastic Patterson developing tank? I had been fighting a similar issue myself. Went through a bunch of film experimenting with as many variables as I could think of, like yourself. In desperation I decided to try a stainless steel Hewes reel and stainless tank. I don’t understand why but my spotting problem has gone. Worth a shot.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jun 16, 2020

Grampadoug said:
Are you using a plastic Patterson developing tank? I had been fighting a similar issue myself. Went through a bunch of film experimenting with as many variables as I could think of, like yourself. In desperation I decided to try a stainless steel Hewes reel and stainless tank. I don’t understand why but my spotting problem has gone. Worth a shot.

I faced this problem with only one film+developer combination. I reported the problem to Mr. Boehme of Filmotech and switched to a different developer. I continue to use Patterson tank and I have not faced the problem since then thankfully!

Bormental · Jun 16, 2020

FWIW, I am having a similar issue with the Foma films, but only in 120 format. I see these spots with D76 and Xtol. They're mostly disappear (but not completely) when I'm using full-strength solution but it gets worse when I do 1+1. However, there are other unknown variables as well, because the severity varies from roll to roll. This drives me nuts, especially because the 35mm Foma is just fine, even when developed in the same tank at the same time!

The comment above about ambient humidity levels seems relevant, I think there's some correlation to ambient temperature+humidity and intensity of the spots (cold+humid=more spots). Hard to tell, because I didn't keep records.

AgX · Jul 9, 2020

What reply did you get from Filmotec?

AgX · Jul 9, 2020

Basically white spots can be due to:

-) airbubbles from air trapt in the tank
-) airbubbles from air mixed into the bath
-) CO2 bubbles created inside the emulsion during developing
-) plain dirt
-) precipitations from the developer
-) emulsion defects

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 9, 2020

AgX said:
What reply did you get from Filmotec?

This was their response:

"We have discussed and checked your problem. We have never found such fault. Besides, we check all our films by infrared checking and would never deliver such film.

We assume there is a problem with the developer or fix bath, perhaps also air bubbles in the bath?"

I wrote back to them detailing the experiments I did with other developers, they asked me to share the emulsion number and roll number with them. I gave them the information and subsequently didn't hear back from them.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 9, 2020

AgX said:
Basically white spots can be due to:

-) airbubbles from air trapt in the tank
-) airbubbles from air mixed into the bath
-) CO2 bubbles created inside the emulsion during developing
-) plain dirt
-) precipitations from the developer
-) emulsion defects

I developed Orwo Un54 and another film together in the same tank and only UN54 had the spots. And the spots don't appear when non-Catechol developers are used. So I guess it's some problem with the emulsion that surfaces only when Catechol developers are used. Any way, I have no dogmatic allegiance to staining developers and in the end switching to Adox MQ Borax served me well.

Donald Qualls · Jul 9, 2020

Catechol developers use carbonate alkali, do they not? Carbonate is known to create pinholes/bubbles in the emulsion if you use an acid stop bath or bypass stop and use an acid fixer -- the carbonate, trapped in the gelatin, produces carbon dioxide when it reacts with acids. I've seen this with various carbonate-based developers (though it doesn't seem to happen with prints -- Dektol is a carbonate alkali developer -- the pinholes might just be too small to see without enlargement).

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Jul 9, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Catechol developers use carbonate alkali, do they not?

The point I was trying to make is this: Catechol developers with carbonate as the alkali (e.g. Pyrocat HD) produced spots whereas metol developers with carbonate as the alkali (e.g. Crawley's FX1) didn't. Further I didn't use acid stop bath when I used catechol based second developer in reversal processing of this film. Yet I got spots. So I'm inclined to suspect that catechol had some role in this. Maybe it's an artifact of the tanning effect of catechol? I don't know.

Now thinking about it, I wonder whether pH of the working solution had a role to play. I don't remember offhand the pH of the working solution of Crawley's FX1, but that of Pyrocat HD is quite high.

Lachlan Young · Jul 9, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
Now thinking about it, I wonder whether pH of the working solution had a role to play. I don't remember offhand the pH of the working solution of Crawley's FX1, but that of Pyrocat HD is quite high.

I think that FX-1 has 2.5g of Sodium Carbonate in a litre of working strength solution, Pyrocat working strength solution (if made with the 20% solution of Sodium Carbonate suggested as a substitute for the 75% solution of Potassium Carbonate) has 10g of Sodium Carbonate in it. Make of that what you will.

How to get rid of spots on the negatives?

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