How to get grain-free black and white negatives?

darinwc · Sep 30, 2015

I'm surprised this hasn't been stickied yet.
But can we put together a guide for getting beautiful black and white negatives with no hassle?

So far, I know enough to use a fast film. I like fp4 , but tmax 100, apx 100, and delta 100 are all great. Though I dislike tmax because the color stain is hard to get out.
But what developer and what actual ISO?

Also, what other tips can you give? Use fresh film. Keep the film cool.
Does temperature control during development really matter?
What about agitation?

Athiril · Sep 30, 2015

Use Rollei Retro 80S, similar resolving power to T-Max　100。　Grain is much much finer.

Shoot at ISO 50 and reduce developing time for more normal contrast。

Otherwise you can just use T-Max or Delta, or Acros in Xtol, or in Perceptol at half the box speed for finer grain.

I have found that adding 5mg of potassium iodide per litre of working developer to developer boosts resolving power of most films I`ve tried （including T-Max 100）　In multiple developer types including Xtol and Rodinal (addition of potassium thiocyanate to Rodinal improves grain as well, and in many　Cases shortens developing time significantly).

I often use 24 and 27 degrees in Xtol replenished for shorter developing times, grain is still the same.

The same addition of potassium iodide may work well in perceptol I haven`t tried but its worth a shot.

Otherwise just move up a format size, 645 still pretty convenient with f/2.8 lenses.

darkosaric · Sep 30, 2015

That is easy:

For 35mm use ADOX CMS 20 II film plus ADOTECH developer. Use box speed ISO and nice prime lens. No grain at all.

Xmas · Sep 30, 2015

darinwc said:
I'm surprised this hasn't been stickied yet.
But can we put together a guide for getting beautiful black and white negatives with no hassle?

So far, I know enough to use a fast film. I like fp4 , but tmax 100, apx 100, and delta 100 are all great. Though I dislike tmax because the color stain is hard to get out.
But what developer and what actual ISO?

Also, what other tips can you give? Use fresh film. Keep the film cool.
Does temperature control during development really matter?
What about agitation?

Use longer in fixer for Tmax Acros and Delta.
Use Kodak Hypo clear per data sheet.
Pink stain will not be on film 24 hours later.

You don't need close temperature control after developer unless you use Foma. But if your wash water is cool you need to double time, simple to hold temps for me... Fix time is temperature dependent if you under fix cause it is cool you will be sorry.

Panf+ or any of the slow films have less grain.

But grain is meant to be there with 35mm @16x20 it is like digital noise... The signature on the print.

georg16nik · Sep 30, 2015

darinwc said:
I'm surprised this hasn't been stickied yet.
But can we put together a guide for getting beautiful black and white negatives with no hassle?
.....

Ilford PanF+, Copex-rapid, Rollei Retro 80S, Adox CMS20 and specialized developers.
Low contrast lenses, and as previously mentioned shoot half the box speed; since 99% of the speeds on the films boxes are quite optimistically exaggerated because the ISO specs allow the mfg to brand ISO 50 film as 100, etc.,

Printing up to 16x20 even from 135 format I fail to see how grain might be problematic even from the conventional films you listed, since after all, that silvery texture is our bread and butter.

Xmas · Sep 30, 2015

georg16nik said:
Ilford PanF+, Copex-rapid, Rollei Retro 80S, Adox CMS20 and specialized developers.
Low contrast lenses, and as previously mentioned shoot half the box speed; since 99% of the speeds on the films boxes are quite optimistically exaggerated because the ISO specs allow the mfg to brand ISO 50 film as 100, etc.,

Printing up to 16x20 even from 135 format I fail to see how grain might be problematic even from the conventional films you listed, since after all, that silvery texture is our bread and butter.

HiGeorg

We double posted and

I too use single coated lenses.

And /2 the ISO as when they changed the ISO standard in 1961 I did not believe any of the weasel words they put forward for the change.

georg16nik · Sep 30, 2015

Xmas, I agree on all points and the ISO box speed we can call weasel speed. lol.

Oscar Carlsson · Sep 30, 2015

Use a larger format or a more fine grained film. For 35 mm, use a fine grain developer only if you are ok with having your image softened by the solvent action of the developer.

jim appleyard · Sep 30, 2015

Pixels are part of digital. Brush strokes are part of painting. Grain is part of silver photography. Live with it, embrace it, learn to use it.

Use a larger format camera, a slower film, even a document film like Tech Pan.

Sometimes grain is what you want. If you were doing streeet photography, you may want Tri-X pushed to EI 6400 (or whatever) to show grain, to give the photo a gritty, rough look.

Forget grain and concentrate on composition.

ic-racer · Sep 30, 2015

hoffy · Sep 30, 2015

What? You don't like grain? What's wrong with grain?

RobC · Sep 30, 2015

LOL

No grain = no image.

What do you think your image is made from?

Its like saying you want a digital image file which doesn't have any pixels in it.

MartinP · Sep 30, 2015

Go large - 11x14" contact prints are pretty much grainless, even close up. That might be extreme, but going up a format (135 to 120, 120 to 4x5 etc.) from whatever you are currently using will make a big difference.

Use Delta 100, then follow the instructions and help-files available on the Ilford-Photo website. I hope you realise that agitation and temperature are significant factors in the quality you will see in the negs. It is easy to keep all chemicals and the washes to within a degree even with no clever tempering machines.

Ghostman · Sep 30, 2015

When I was a chef in a previous life someone once asked 'can i please have the risotto without the rice?'

bvy · Sep 30, 2015

Acros and Perceptol stock.

RobC · Sep 30, 2015

Ghostman said:
When I was a chef in a previous life someone once asked 'can i please have the risotto without the rice?'

I once went into a bistro pub with some friends and one of the guys decided he was going to have steak tartare. When the waitress came to take the order he asked for it to be "well done".

georg16nik · Sep 30, 2015

Xmas said:
...And /2 the ISO as when they changed the ISO standard in 1961 I did not believe any of the weasel words they put forward for the change.

Michael R 1974 said:
Sorry, not correct. Also, density is directly related to granularity.

ISO labeling on films is pretty sport.
How is that not correct, Michael?

Ian Grant · Sep 30, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
The standard is clear, and is fundamentally rooted in print quality. It's the people claiming otherwise who are weaseling.

The film companies themselves suggest using different EI's rather then the box ISO for some circumstances. Tmax 100 is a classic for that where Kodak suggested using it at 50EI for a longer tonal range and better shadow detail.

Ian

anjoom_aj · Sep 30, 2015

Do 35 and 120 of the same film differ in grain ?

For example Ilford Delta 400 in 35mm shows more grain than Ilford Delta 400 in 120 ?

Nr90 · Sep 30, 2015

Ian Grant said:
The film companies themselves suggest using different EI's rather then the box ISO for some circumstances. Tmax 100 is a classic for that where Kodak suggested using it at 50EI for a longer tonal range and better shadow detail.

Ian

Yes, but those circumstances are high contrast situations.
http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/f4016/f4016.pdf

"Under most conditions, you’ll obtain highest quality with
normal exposure at the rated exposure index and normal
development. For high-contrast scenes, you’ll obtain
highest quality if you increase exposure by one or two
stops and process the film normally."

Thus, for normal contrast situations they recommend using box speed.

georg16nik · Sep 30, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
The standard is clear, and is fundamentally rooted in print quality. It's the people claiming otherwise who are weaseling.

I have the standard in front of me and can assure you, there is no mention of “print quality”, not even once.
Also, film manufacturers don't put “print quality” under the film speed on the boxes, they don't even follow the marking and labeling recommendations.

darkosaric · Sep 30, 2015

anjoom_aj said:
Do 35 and 120 of the same film differ in grain ?

For example Ilford Delta 400 in 35mm shows more grain than Ilford Delta 400 in 120 ?

Printed on same paper size - yes.

RobC · Sep 30, 2015

anjoom_aj said:
Do 35 and 120 of the same film differ in grain ?

For example Ilford Delta 400 in 35mm shows more grain than Ilford Delta 400 in 120 ?

Essentially they are the same film emulsion so the grain that is produced on film will be appoximately the same structure and size regardless of film format. It is the enlargement factor which makes a difference when the film grain is enlarged enough to make a visible difference in the print.

Ultra fine grained film developed in specific developers will show no grain until you get to really BIG enlargement factors. But it's not only the grain itself, it is the acutance of the grain clumps which have localised edge effects which make an image look sharper and at the same time enhance the visibility of grain clumps in the print. So its swings and roundabouts. You have to find a happy medium which suits your personal aesthetic. Ultrafine grain in film can make a print look lifeless as it usually has little acutance.

Developers like rodinal can create much higher acutance grain whereas a developer like perceptol will create very fine grain but with less acutance. Standard developers like ID11/D76 are in the middle and have an optimal balance between grain clump size and acutance.

As always YMMV. some people prefer more acutance and some people less and some in the middle. Take your pick.

anjoom_aj · Sep 30, 2015

darkosaric said:
Printed on same paper size - yes.

Thanks.

BTW love the People gallery on your website. Cheers

darkosaric · Sep 30, 2015

anjoom_aj said:
Thanks.

BTW love the People gallery on your website. Cheers

Many thanks !

How to get grain-free black and white negatives?

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