How to get film to lay flat?

stradibarrius · Jan 12, 2011

As you know some films are nice how the stay flat after you take the weighted clip off when processing. Other films curl back up like a spring. What are some good methods to get negatives to lay flat like they do when a lab processes them?

jp498 · Jan 12, 2011

After processing, I hang it up to dry as show in this photo, right edge for the scene. The last liquid they were in is a mix of 70-90% isopropyl alcohol and a drop of photoflo, but I doubt that's the reason for flat film.

Dead Link Removed

It dries and it's flat with no propensity to curl up like a spring at all. I take the clip off the bottom, cut it into pieces to go into the negative pages, and it hangs straight while I cut pieces off. This has been tried with tmy2, tmx, fomapan400, acros100 with the same results.

I suspect humidity has a lot to do with it. I don't monitor humidity in the darkroom, but I suspect it's sorta middleish percent, not dry and not damp.

Christopher Walrath · Jan 12, 2011

I have found the the film while wet/damp likes to attempt to curl back on itself. However, as it dries, the curl transfers from edge to edge rather than from end to end.

stradibarrius · Jan 12, 2011

Some films curl edge to edge after they dry but this particular film, Adox CMS 20, rolls up like it was still in the cannister.
I wondered if gentle warming it with a hair dryer, while still hanging and with the clip on the end, would cause it to straighten after it cooled?

bdial · Jan 12, 2011

My method for getting flat film is to buy it from Kodak or Ilford. Works good.

Otherwise, sleeving it and sandwiching it under some books for anywhere from a few hours to a few months (in the case of some Efke) seems to work.

Some plywood and a few clamps would work well too, if you have spares.

Christopher Walrath · Jan 12, 2011

If you try a hair dryer or such, make sure that film is BONE dry or you might end up with particulate contamination issues. Even so, make sure you clean the negs before sleeving them to prevent scratching.

georg16nik · Jan 12, 2011

After the film is completely dry, I feed the film back on the spiral with its emulsion side out.. OR You can also roll the film on its back, again emulsion face outside and roll a clean piece of paper slightly wider that the film around to lock it with paper ends going inside the film roll. It reminds of a paper canister : )
Let it stay like that for an hour or so.
The CMS 20 will be perfectly flat.

hpulley · Jan 12, 2011

Kodak Portra 120 folds almost in half while drying but then is perfectly flat when it dries completely. Crazy thing to watch, not seen other films do it though I don't always stick around to watch them dry, usually only color I'm multiple tanks in a row so perhaps T-Max does it too but I haven't noticed. Fujicolor 120 OTOH dries with a slight curl so I prefer Portra 120 for that though Fujicolor 400 seems a bit sharper than Portra 400, at least the old expired stuff I'm shooting with at the moment.

I use a glass negative carrier so the curl doesn't matter while enlarging.

stradibarrius · Jan 12, 2011

George, have you experienced the curl with CMS 20???

georg16nik · Jan 12, 2011

Yes, it curls but if after it dries completely You feed the film back on the spiral with its emulsion side out and let its stay for a few hours its gonna be flat.
Back in university, we were taught after the film dries completely to roll it on its back side in emulsion side out and wrap it with paper, let it stay for an hour - no curl problems thereafter..
I have at least hundreds of CMS 20 rolls shot in the last year and they are totally flat but for every roll I follow the above rule, then cut it in strips.

stradibarrius · Jan 12, 2011

Thanks again! I did as you suggested and cut the first roll of CMS20 in half. I processed the first portion in Rodinal 1+50 and the results had to much contrast for my taste. I am about to process the second half in Rodinal 1+200. I shot the roll at ASA20. How long and how would you agitate? The "massive Development" chart says 15 min @68 deg.

Tim Gray · Jan 12, 2011

I think you'll get a lot of different answers because I think there are multiple variables at play. Format (35mm or 120), film manufacturer, method of drying, length of drying, humidity, etc.

All of my 35mm film dries with a slight bow to it, edge to edge. Kodak, Ilford, whatever. It's all the same for me. I hang it up to dry with weights on the bottom. I've tried different weights, clips, etc., but it's all the same. The couple rolls of 120 I've done curled almost into a tube about halfway through drying, but then flattened completely at the end.

My simple solution is to just stack a bunch of books on them overnight after I sleeve them. Takes most of the curl right out.

georg16nik · Jan 12, 2011

Barry, The dev chart gives 15 min @68 deg.. but in the column ASA/ISO it says 10 and You shot it as 20, so Your roll might be underexposed and will need some mojo.
On Adox website http://www.adox.de/english/ADOX_Films/ADOX_Films/ADOX_CMS_Films.html they say

If developed in non dedicated low contrast developers (HC 110, cafenol etc) it can be exposed at 6-12 ASA.

So, I would go with 1+300, 4 minutes water presoak, drain that out (the water will be brownish in color), set timer to 28 or even 30 minutes, pour the developer, agitate for at least 1 minute, then 2 slow inversions every 2 minutes and I would go like that up until the 20th minute then 2 inversions on the 24th minute and let it stay 4 or 6 more minutes then drain out...
That would be the safest way to deal with that situation.

mwdake · Jan 12, 2011

For those 120 films that want to roll back up after drying I reverse roll the film then pin the very edge with a clothespin. I then leave the rolled film in the cupboard for about a week.
It takes care of the curl for me.

2F/2F · Jan 12, 2011

I'd just not worry about it too much, and use a glass film carrier if it is really extreme. However, even with the curliest film I use, Rollei ATP 1.1, it lays flat when taped onto a glassless film carrier. For storage, it is not a big issue because all your other sleeved rolls press against it in the box to make it somewhat flat.

MattKing · Jan 12, 2011

The 120 "Classic Pan 200" (purportedly Fortepan) I bought from J & C a few years ago is the curliest film I've ever used. Even 4+ years later, it still resists all attempts to flatten. A Glass carrier isn't enough - you need tape as well!

sly · Jan 13, 2011

I found the curliest film I ever used was HIE. It was impossible to make a contact sheet until it had been sleeved and flattened for a couple of days.

robbalbrecht · May 27, 2011

I have a roll of Agfa APX 100 that's in sleeves - between two books - has 40lbs of weight on top of it - and it still curls up.
I'm pretty sure it's just mocking me at this point....

Rick A · May 27, 2011

I find that a good steam iron set to polyester works fine.

dehk · May 27, 2011

bdial said:
My method for getting flat film is to buy it from Kodak or Ilford. Works good.

Shot any Tri X 135 Lately? >.>

nworth · May 27, 2011

I have not had a lot of trouble with 120 film (and absolutely none with sheet film, with its more substantial base), but 35 mm film has been driving me nuts. Black and white materials are much worse than color, which usually stays reasonably flat. The curl across the width of the film is ofter too great to allow me to scan the film. The enlarger film carrier will usually keep the film frame flat enough to work with, although there is often a bulge. Severely curled can make me use a glass carrier for critical work. I am certainly looking for a cure.

Why do the manufacturers use a base and film formulation that permits such distortions? I note that APS film, which uses a different base, seems to stay very flat, even though it gets rolled up tightly in its canister. I think photographers would absorb a bit of additional cost if they could get material that behaved well, especially in these days when scanning has become so important.

Dennis S · May 27, 2011

Film

MattKing said:
The 120 "Classic Pan 200" (purportedly Fortepan) I bought from J & C a few years ago is the curliest film I've ever used. Even 4+ years later, it still resists all attempts to flatten. A Glass carrier isn't enough - you need tape as well!

For that film I used Rodinal 1-50 (Blazinal for Canadians ) and it seemed to flatten out nicely

Jeff Kubach · May 27, 2011

I use a steam roller myself!

Jeff

ROL · May 27, 2011

"STAY!", in a firm voice.

OK, it rarely works with my dog either.

All seriousness aside, Eastern European films are particularly bad curlers, and in other ways to. Use of glass carriers when enlarging, as others have suggested, is the best ultimate solution to assure film flatness. Storing in negative sheets in file folders for some period of time before using is somewhat helpful in mitigating curl.

Thomas Bertilsson · May 29, 2011

ROL said:
All seriousness aside, Eastern European films are particularly bad curlers...

Unless you use Foma 35mm films, which are flat as pancakes, flatter than any Kodak, Ilford, or Fuji films I've used.

But the glass negative carrier rules. The print quality will definitely be better, if sharp is what you're looking for.

How to get film to lay flat?

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