How to expose high/low tone?

Rif Raf · May 14, 2019

Noob question
I am shooting black and white 35mm film and processing/printing myself
I have been told that if I meter a "white cat in the snow" I should over-expose by 1 or 2 stops from what the meter says so the image doesn't come out grey. (And opposite for dark tone metering.)
I am wondering if it isn't better to expose as neutral grey regardless of the overall tone and adjust the look I want when I print
That is: Should I expose for the steepest part of the film response curve (neutral grey) to get every hair on the cat defined and print with a short enlarger exposure to get a light tone?
I hope this makes sense
Thank you for your help

chriscrawfordphoto · May 14, 2019

Meter the snow and give two stops more exposure. You don't want to expose it as middle gray, it'll be underexposed. Even if there is nothing dark in the photo, it will not look good in print if you expose the film for middle gray and print light to make it look white.

Try both ways. The nice thing about 35mm film is it is cheap and easy to shoot the scene with different settings to see what works best when you're learning.

Doremus Scudder · May 15, 2019

You've got to be smarter than your meter; it thinks everything is middle gray. If the overall reflectance of the scene is brighter than middle gray, you have to compensate by overexposing, otherwise the small darker details in the scene will be lost to underexposure. The opposite if the average of the scene is darker than middle gray; your meter will want to overexpose. This scenario isn't so bad as underexposure, but you should adjust just the same by giving less exposure.

How much to over- and underexpose is a matter of experience. The white cat in the snow needs a couple of stops overexposure. A black cat in the snow might need just one stop. The black can in the coal bin will need a couple stops underexposure, etc.

Or, you can refine your metering technique by metering just the shadow area of your scene and underexposing a stop or two (*for negative film, not transparencies-see below). The rule of thumb is: the darkest shadow that you still want some detail in should be metered and then underexposed by two stops. "Luminous" shadows get just one stop overexposure. Shadowed snow gets no overexposure. You may be able to do this with your averaging meter. If not, just learn to judge the scene and use exposure compensation.

*For slide film, you should meter the highlights, i.e., the lightest area you want detail in, and overexpose one-and-a-half to two stops depending on the film you are using. You'll have to test to see which works best for you.

Best,

Doremus

Alan9940 · May 15, 2019

aTo add to the already great comments... If you find your shadows lacking the detail you'd like to see, after under-exposing 2 stops, then drop your film speed. For example, if shooting ISO 100 film and you're getting blocked up shadows, then drop the film speed to EI 64 or EI 50. Then, if you drop the film speed and find your high values (snow in your example) over-developed, then drop your development time by 10-15%.

Have fun!

cowanw · May 15, 2019

Just to make the point we are talking about reflective meters not incident meters.

Sirius Glass · May 15, 2019

Either you can open two f/stops or use an incident meter. I found that an incident meter is more accurate in those situations.

nmp · May 15, 2019

Rif Raf said:
Noob question
I am shooting black and white 35mm film and processing/printing myself
I have been told that if I meter a "white cat in the snow" I should over-expose by 1 or 2 stops from what the meter says so the image doesn't come out grey. (And opposite for dark tone metering.)
I am wondering if it isn't better to expose as neutral grey regardless of the overall tone and adjust the look I want when I print
That is: Should I expose for the steepest part of the film response curve (neutral grey) to get every hair on the cat defined and print with a short enlarger exposure to get a light tone?
I hope this makes sense
Thank you for your help

The reason for exposing over the meter in this situation is not to get the snow the right tone in the print per se. It is for making sure that the other elements that might be darker (particularly from the toe of the curve) are not underexposed. In your scenario, if an all white cat was sitting in the snow, by all means expose for the snow and the cat and under-print to get the correct whiteness in the scene and get every little detail on the cat and the snow. But there rarely is a situation like that where the whole scene has only 2-3 stops of intensity variation without any darker elements, such as the eye of the cat, shadows, etc in your example. Those darker elements in the scene has the potential to lack details if you expose for the snow or the fur of the cat. That is why it is better to do this in the camera and not compensate for afterwards in the darkroom.

Rif Raf · May 15, 2019

Thank you for the great replies. I am using a 35mm camera with TTL center weighted meter. I will try using the zone system (i.e. meter shadows and under expose 2 stops) as suggested. To Alan9940: I am using TMax400. The data sheet says nominally ISO 400 but the film can be safely exposed at ISO800 without changing developing time. Does this mean the ISO rating already gives a safety margin to prevent underexposure?
Thank you once again

Sirius Glass · May 15, 2019

Take a reading of your hand and open up an f/stop.

Chan Tran · May 15, 2019

Rif Raf said:
Noob question
I am shooting black and white 35mm film and processing/printing myself
I have been told that if I meter a "white cat in the snow" I should over-expose by 1 or 2 stops from what the meter says so the image doesn't come out grey. (And opposite for dark tone metering.)
I am wondering if it isn't better to expose as neutral grey regardless of the overall tone and adjust the look I want when I print
That is: Should I expose for the steepest part of the film response curve (neutral grey) to get every hair on the cat defined and print with a short enlarger exposure to get a light tone?
I hope this makes sense
Thank you for your help

You can do that unless there is some dark area in the shot that is important to you. For B&W you basically fit the brightness range to the characteristic curve.

darkosaric · May 15, 2019

Rif Raf said:
I am shooting black and white 35mm film and processing/printing myself

Welcome to APUG .
If in doubt - overexpose, it is a pain to print thin negatives.
Which camera(s) are you using? If you have camera with matrix metering - then use that, they are great.

Rif Raf · May 15, 2019

Thanks,
I am using a Nikon FE2 35mm camera. It has center weighted average 18% grey metering with a lovely analogue (match and needle) display
I agree, it seems that there is nothing you can do if the negative is underexposed. The curve seems pretty linear between the toe and shoulder so hitting the middle isn't that important.

Alan9940 · May 16, 2019

Rif Raf said:
Thank you for the great replies. I am using a 35mm camera with TTL center weighted meter. I will try using the zone system (i.e. meter shadows and under expose 2 stops) as suggested. To Alan9940: I am using TMax400. The data sheet says nominally ISO 400 but the film can be safely exposed at ISO800 without changing developing time. Does this mean the ISO rating already gives a safety margin to prevent underexposure?
Thank you once again

Exposing TMax400 at EI800 is a one stop underexposure. I've never tested it, but I'd guess that a normal development time would produce thin negatives. Normally, more exposure = reduced development vs less exposure = more development; depending on what you're trying to do, of course.

silveror0 · May 16, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
Either you can open two f/stops or use an incident meter. I found that an incident meter is more accurate in those situations.

If your meter is a reflective type that uses a plastic dome for incident readings, make sure the dome has not significantly yellowed with age.

silveror0 · May 16, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
Take a reading of your hand and open up an f/stop.

What if the hand is not a Caucasian hand?

KN4SMF · May 16, 2019

silveror0 said:
What if the hand is not a Caucasian hand?

I've seen some mighty darked skinned black people in my day, but it seems like their palms are about as light as mine. It's a pretty safe bet for it to be a universal rule, unless you work in a coal mine or machine shop.

MattKing · May 16, 2019

KN4SMF said:
I've seen some mighty darked skinned black people in my day, but it seems like their palms are about as light as mine. It's a pretty safe bet for it to be a universal rule, unless you work in a coal mine or machine shop.

Which brings thoughts of "Blazing Saddles", I'm afraid.

MattKing · May 16, 2019

Kodak recommends the same development time for TMax 400 exposed at an EI of 800 because they are of the opinion that the highlights suffer more from increasing development then the shadows suffer from the under-exposure.
"Pushing" film is always a compromise.

jim10219 · May 16, 2019

If you can find a scene without the white snow and cat (or whatever might cause and overexposure) that is in the same light, you can meter that and use the settings from that scene to apply to the photo you're taking.

For instance, if you're shooting a landscape with a lot of sky, try pointing the camera down towards the ground (not a heavy shadow area) and use that meter reading for your sky scene. Or if you're shooting the setting sun, point the camera off to the side so the sun isn't in the photo to get your meter reading.

Sirius Glass · May 16, 2019

Sirius Glass said:
Take a reading of your hand and open up an f/stop.

silveror0 said:
What if the hand is not a Caucasian hand?

KN4SMF said:
I've seen some mighty darked skinned black people in my day, but it seems like their palms are about as light as mine. It's a pretty safe bet for it to be a universal rule, unless you work in a coal mine or machine shop.

Still works. All palms lack much melanin.

How to expose high/low tone?

Rif Raf

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Doremus Scudder

Alan9940

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Rif Raf

Sirius Glass

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darkosaric

Rif Raf

Alan9940

silveror0

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KN4SMF

MattKing

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How to expose high/low tone?

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