How to calculate exposure with focal plane type flash?

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Donald Qualls

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The last flashbulbs to be manufactured were Focal Plane type bulbs, from a factory in Northern Ireland (as I recall); they ceased production about fifteen years ago, I think.

I never had a flash unit that would make good use of those, never bought any.

I do, however, have a Speed Graphic with a good focal plane shutter, and I have an idea for building an LED-based flash unit that would support the 1/8 second or so (I think I can get enough light out of LED units made to replace halogen bulbs in headlamps). As I was kicking this idea around in my head, it occurred to me to wonder how the old timers arrived at correct exposure with focal plane bulbs?

With conventional flash, you have a Guide Number -- for a particular film speed, a given combination of bulb and reflector has a characteristic light level. Divide the Guide Number for the film speed you're using by the distance from flash to subject (in either feet or meters, depending on which was used to calculate the Guide Number) and out drops the aperture -- GN 100 at 20 feet gives f/5 (for which f/5.6 is probably close enough, though f/4.5 is another option for lenses with partial stop increments). This is based on the flash and shutter time being close enough to the same length that the flash intensity can be treated as constant during the exposure. With fast leaf shutters, there are corrections, of course -- a standard M type bulb burns for about 1/40 of a second, so if you're using a shutter faster than about 1/60 you have to compensate.

With a focal plane shutter and FP type bulbs, however, it's a whole different game. The bulb burns for the entire time it takes a Speed Graphic shutter to travel -- a bit over 1/8 second, or less depending on the tension setting -- with a nearly constant brightness (there's some tail-off, so it looks longer to the eye). Since you're using what amounts to constant light over the time of the exposure, both aperture and shutter speed enter into it.

I started to think you could have a sort of "EV Guide Number" -- divide by distance and get an EV out, and use the EV to get a combination of aperture and shutter speed. The problem is, EV is linear with scene brightness, while Guide Number as I learned it factors in the inverse square law that describes how light intensity drops off with distance. So, how do you factor in distance, aperture, and shutter speed for a focal plane bulb (equivalent) flash exposure?
 

AgX

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In addition to being dependant in meter vs. feet and the film speed, with focal plane bulbs the GN is also dependant on shutter speed.

If not given with regard to shutter speed you best experimentally establish this GN for one shutter speed. For other speeds you then can resort to calculation.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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In addition to being dependant in meter vs. feet and the film speed, with focal plane bulbs the GN is also dependant on shutter speed.

So I'd have a box of bulbs (back in the day) that would say "in 8" polished bowl, ASA 100, 1/125, GN 45 feet" or something similar? I'd then divide by 12 feet to subject to get f/3.8 (ish) and, since my lens is only f/5.6, convert that to f/8 and 1/30 and brace on a doorframe to avoid motion blur...
 

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It would be a lot easier to use Class M bulbs and a flash synchronizer (Graflite and solenoid, or Graflite and synchronized shutter) than fiddle with focal plane flash.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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It would be a lot easier to use Class M bulbs and a flash synchronizer (Graflite and solenoid, or Graflite and synchronized shutter) than fiddle with focal plane flash.

Or a shutter with sync contacts and any convenient flash (with suitable adapter cord). Of course it would.

However, the lens I usually use on my Speed has no working shutter -- it's in a Compur case, but all the works, including shutter leaves and sync contacts, were removed before I got it. Also, the focal plane shutter has a much broader and finer-grained range of available speeds.
 

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Good luck... you’re going to be working a lot harder than necessary, and probably working a lot harder than it’s worth.
 

Jim Jones

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To complicate the problem further, consider ambient light and synchronization. If the ambient light is insignificant, open flash exposure can be calculated from the guide number, and any flash bulb can be used. If ambient light is bright enough for photography, why use flash bulbs unless you are imitating Weegee? The grey area between those two situations is more complicated. You have to add the exposure from the ambient light to the light from the flash to calculate the exposure. I can send you the curves for type 2A, FP-26, and FP26B Superflash bulbs if that will help. Then there is the problem of synchronization. Later Speed Graphics with focal plane flash contacts probably trigger the shutter with the appropriate 16 or 20ms delay. Using a front shutter may be simpler, although some of them may have sync idiosyncrasies that only appear when one is stretching the normal bounds of photography.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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Does anyone read the OP any more? I'm not using flashbulbs, because I don't have any FP bulbs and they cost as much per shot as sheet film. My thought was to build a light source that will emulate a focal plane flash, more or less like a strobe that burns for 1/8 second or a little longer. Bulbs that aren't made for FP will expose only a band (at the camera top, scene bottom, with F or M sync) with the focal plane shutter.

Almost all of the flash photography of interest is in that "gray area" -- too dim to hand hold without flash, but bright enough to get ghosts or blur with open flash. Conventionally, the ambient will be two or three stops below the flash exposure in this situation, so can be ignored for calculation. It's only when using fill flash that ambient is a big issue (or when trying to do that trick in one of Ansel's books, balancing indoor flash illumination with the outdoors seen through a window).

I won't argue, front shutter would be a lot simpler -- but I'd have to buy another lens (or at least a correct size shutter) to use front shutter with the 135mm, or else recalibrate my RF to use a different lens (I have 90, 105, and 150 mm lenses in working shutters with sync).
 

BrianShaw

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Does anyone read the OP any more? I
I’ll give you an honest answer, Donald... it was too long and convoluted. I tried. Sorry if I missed the mark. Gray area is hard to master when one seems to be struggling with basics. Good luck to you. Looking forward to hearing about your progress.

p.s. in my experience with flashbulbs you’re absolutely correct about the role of ambient light. Even with E-6. I’d get great exposure with bulbs, calculating with either GN arithmetic or a Kodak Photoguide dial calculator, even at 15-20 foot distances. Mostly in shadow to fill rather than full sunlight.
 
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MattKing

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If you have an LED source, can you kludge up a focal plane meter and use it to gather the data to create your own guide number calculation?
 

Dan Fromm

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I have an idea for building an LED-based flash unit that would support the 1/8 second or so (I think I can get enough light out of LED units made to replace halogen bulbs in headlamps).

Why short duration? LEDs are good for continuous illumination.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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If you have an LED source, can you kludge up a focal plane meter and use it to gather the data to create your own guide number calculation?

Given that I could, in this case, burn the LED source continuously (for a short time), I could probably just read the scene while the LED is lit. The key is knowing that it's normal for FP bulbs to give a Guide Number specified by shutter speed as well as film speed and feet or meters.
 
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Donald Qualls

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Why short duration? LEDs are good for continuous illumination.

A lightweight battery has a limited amount of power. Car headlamp LEDs draw several amps, and require approximately 12V at that current level. Power tool batteries (as the power source likely to be readily available) also don't like to operate at that level of current for very long (they'll overheat).
 

Dan Fromm

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A lightweight battery has a limited amount of power. Car headlamp LEDs draw several amps, and require approximately 12V at that current level. Power tool batteries (as the power source likely to be readily available) also don't like to operate at that level of current for very long (they'll overheat).
Oh, come on, Donald, you're a big strong fellow. You don't have to carry a car battery. Years ago I made a 30v battery belt so that I could use a 30 v Lowel Light in the field. Fifteen 2v sealed lead-acid cells taken from a telco backup battery, wired in series. Back when, I could travel by air wearing the wretched thing.
 

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You’d need one hell of a LED source to do what bulbs do.
Not only power, but also spectral smoothness and content.

And does such a light source have warmup time?

With such a source would it not be easier to just turn it on, take the photo and turn it off?
 
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Donald Qualls

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Dan, a Speed Graphic and Grafmatic is heavy enough. Put on a mount for at least two headlamp LEDs and an 18V power tool battery, and I'll be hand holding ten pounds or more. Yes, a belt battery is one option, but power tool batteries also have lithium chemistry, so they hold a LOT more energy for their weight than lead-acid -- and I'd like to be able to carry a spare, just in case. You can overheat lead-acid cells, too -- so continuous operation isn't a good idea. And no, I'm not a "big strong fellow" -- I'm 61 years old, out of shape, overweight, arthritic -- in other words, pretty typical for Photrio.

You’d need one hell of a LED source to do what bulbs do.
Not only power, but also spectral smoothness and content.

And does such a light source have warmup time?

With such a source would it not be easier to just turn it on, take the photo and turn it off?

Have you seen LED headlamps? They replace a 70W or higher halogen bulb. Two of them give something like 20,000 lumens (and they're sold in pairs only). In my car (retrofitted from halogen) they come up to brightness pretty much instantly. The color spectrum is blue-white compared to regular halogen, so ought to be close to daylight -- and for B&W it won't matter much.

I'll likely use a relay with series capacitor in the coil circuit to time the light, and I can set the switch up to have it start a tenth second early if that turns out to be necessary. Running a quarter or even a half second isn't the problem -- but running continuously will overheat a power tool battery in less than a minute, and those things cost well over $100 for the good ones.
 

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Dan, a Speed Graphic and Grafmatic is heavy enough. Put on a mount for at least two headlamp LEDs and an 18V power tool battery, and I'll be hand holding ten pounds or more. Yes, a belt battery is one option, but power tool batteries also have lithium chemistry, so they hold a LOT more energy for their weight than lead-acid -- and I'd like to be able to carry a spare, just in case. You can overheat lead-acid cells, too -- so continuous operation isn't a good idea. And no, I'm not a "big strong fellow" -- I'm 61 years old, out of shape, overweight, arthritic -- in other words, pretty typical for Photrio.



Have you seen LED headlamps? They replace a 70W or higher halogen bulb. Two of them give something like 20,000 lumens (and they're sold in pairs only). In my car (retrofitted from halogen) they come up to brightness pretty much instantly. The color spectrum is blue-white compared to regular halogen, so ought to be close to daylight -- and for B&W it won't matter much.

I'll likely use a relay with series capacitor in the coil circuit to time the light, and I can set the switch up to have it start a tenth second early if that turns out to be necessary. Running a quarter or even a half second isn't the problem -- but running continuously will overheat a power tool battery in less than a minute, and those things cost well over $100 for the good ones.
Sure you could do it. I’m just thinking how much is carefully timed switching buying you? As opposed to just turning the lamp on, taking the photo and off again. One second.
You could even place a simple leaf switch over the shutter button, so it turns the lamp on with your finger on its way, and off again when you lift it.
 

Mr Bill

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As I was kicking this idea around in my head, it occurred to me to wonder how the old timers arrived at correct exposure with focal plane bulbs?

As you've already found out, via guide numbers supplied with your flasbulbs.

So I'd have a box of bulbs (back in the day) that would say "in 8" polished bowl, ASA 100, 1/125, GN 45 feet" or something similar?

Right, except only a few bulbs had enough burn time for a 4x5 fp shutter. They were big bulbs, like Sylvania 2A and GE 31, with guide numbers around 145 in your hypothetical situation. Data is from Gordon Parks' 1947 book, Flash Photography, which is where I first learned the basics of flash guns, etc. (Although I have a bit of seat time with 4x5 and flash guns I personally never used the fp shutter with em.)

Ps, I see your later post about the lumen output of headlights. Just for the WOW factor, the #31 flashbulb was putting out 1.4 million lumens, albeit only for about 50 milliseconds.
 
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Donald Qualls

Donald Qualls

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the #31 flashbulb was putting out 1.4 million lumens, albeit only for about 50 milliseconds.

But with 50 ms burn time, that wouldn't be very useful with the focal plane shutter, unless it's dark enough (and no light sources in frame) to use open flash. The 2A would have a more relevant figure for this discussion. Also worth nothing that when the #31 was built, film speeds above 100 ASA were a relative rarity (two choices in the world?). I don't need to photograph a football game or a city bus and get the whole thing in frame and correctly exposed.

@Helge Something like that leaf switch is what I have in mind to trigger the relay -- first relay latches, to be sure the second stays pulled in long enough; second actually powers the lamps until the capacitor cuts the coil current enough to let it open again, which will also let the latched relay unlatch. Only the second relay needs heavy enough contacts to carry the main lamp current; the switch and latch relay only need to carry the current to operate both coils.
 

grat

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In modern terms, how many lux/m do you need? I've got a nice little portable LED panel that's color-adjustable and puts out 650 lux/m. In practical terms, at 3 feet, that will increase the EV reading by +5 (from 3.5 to 8.5 in my very simplistic test).

It's not the brightest unit out there (the same company makes a panel rated at 950 lux/m). But it does fit on a tripod, and has an internal Li-ion battery-- no cars required. :smile:

Obviously, it's not going to compete with a flash unit or a high-power LED light, but it's significantly cheaper than something like this: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...t_drbrplf600d_boltray_600_plus_led.html/specs
 
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Donald Qualls

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The "flash" unit I have in mind should be something that will let me get to about 20 feet on ISO 400 film at a reasonable aperture (say, f/5.6) and a shutter speed I can reliably hand hold (I've gone as slow as 1/20 with this focal plane shutter, but 1/30 would be a better minimum). That's EV 8 equivalent, but I don't know how to convert EV 8 at 20 feet to lumens or lux/m.
 

Mr Bill

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But with 50 ms burn time, that wouldn't be very useful with the focal plane shutter, unless it's dark enough (and no light sources in frame) to use open flash. The 2A would have a more relevant figure for this discussion.

No, you're misunderstanding. The long burn time should carry through for the entire shutter travel, so you could have used any shutter speed. Either of those bulbs would have given a guide number of about 100 to 120 (feet) at 1/500 second shutter speed.

The "little" bulbs, meaning like #6 (visually like #5, except that 6 was an fp version) were specifically suitable only for "small" fp shutters; burn times were too short for a 4x5 camera.

Anyway this is probably all moot today; just how it used to be.
 
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Donald Qualls

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No, you're misunderstanding. The long burn time should carry through for the entire shutter travel, so you could have used any shutter speed. Either of those bulbs would have given a guide number of about 100 to 120 (feet) at 1/500 seconds.

Okay, you said 1.4 million lumens for 50 ms, I read that as being a regular flashbulb. The shutter travel on my Speed starts above 125 ms at the lower tension settings.
 

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Okay, you said 1.4 million lumens for 50 ms, I read that as being a regular flashbulb. The shutter travel on my Speed starts above 125 ms at the lower tension settings.

No, a regular flashbulb of similar size reached a peak of maybe 4 or 5 million lumens, but for a shorter duration. The two bulbs I listed were stated as being specifically for a 4x5 inch focal plane shutter. I just gave a burn time for the mostly flat output portion, looking at output curves. If you had a supply of these, and a flash gun, etc., (and didn't mind burning them up) your shooting problems would be over.

Again, all moot points today, just historical.
 
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