How to avoid dusty scratch on my negs ?

Rom · Nov 15, 2010

Dear all,

I know it is certainly a newbie question but i need your help.

So as you can see i have a big problem, i have still a big issue on dusty scratch when i enlarge it (35mm & 6X6). I try to solve it out but i can't !

Here it is my process :

All my tool are cleaned and washed before any use.

I do not open completely my can of 135, i just do not take it back at the maximum when i have finish it and then, it helps me to set it up in the roll befor developping.. Is it a bad way to scratch the negs.

Then, dev bath, stop fix and wash are made with ap water. Not very good quality, clean with a certain quantity of calcareous.

Last bath with deminarilsed water.

And then, still dust on the negs and it's a big problem.

Is it when it get dry ? My room for this is my bathroom, clean, but not like a laboratory..

Many thanks in advance for your help

All the best

Romain

hpulley · Nov 15, 2010

Generally dust gets on there while the negatives are drying. Scratches will get on there either from your camera, while you are unloading the film from the roll or putting it onto your reel or afterward.

How do you dry your negatives? Do you use a squeegee or let them drip dry? How long do you let them dry before you store them? How do you store them?

I found drip drying is best. I use a bit of Ilfosol (like Kodak Photoflo) in my distilled water final rinses which seems to help. I dry my negatives in a part of my basement where there are no vents, away from the furnace so it does not blow dust around there.

Diapositivo · Nov 15, 2010

Possible sources of dust or had particles:

In your camera, while the film is used. Solution: use a blower brush inside the film compartment before loading film;

In your hands, while loading the film on the reel. Solution: use cotton gloves while loading the reel (well, this is also to avoid finger marks).

In your tap water. Solution: screw a tap water filter (one of those with an iron net).

In your wipers (what's their name? The contraction to eliminate water from the surface of film, as an alternative to fingers). Solution: put some wetting agent in your last bath, use - as you already do - demineralised water for last bath, don't wipe water off the film, trust the wetting solution. Maybe you could try with some "higher quality" demineralised water, or with proper distilled water.

In your room while developing. Solution: go to your shower, have the shower run with hot water until the room is filled with vapour. Now close the water tap. Hang the film in your bathroom. Close the shower curtains. Exit from bathroom and don't enter until film is dry (vapour will push down ambient dust. Not entering in the room will not agitate ambient air and dust).

In your hands after you developed your film. Solution: use cotton gloves while cutting film or while manipulating it (ok again, this is helpful for finger marks, but could also reduce contact with dust, which I presume is typically nesting under our nails).

In your darkroom: keep it very clean. If it is a bathroom you can pass a sponge on the walls if they are tiled. If you use forced ventilation, filter incoming air.

There is some antistatic spray to be put on film. I never used it and don't know how to make proper use of it. Maybe it could help.

Hope it helps

Fabrizio

R gould · Nov 15, 2010

After the wash soak the film in an anti static wetting agent, something like Tetenal Mirosal then shake the film and hang it up to dry,if you want to wipe the film use a sheet of kitchen roll,and wioe the film base,shiny side, only,do not use fingers and though away any film wipers you have got,they are one of the worst offenders for scratching a film,Richard

Mainecoonmaniac · Nov 15, 2010

I have to agree with Richard. Film wipers are a major culprit of scratched film. I use a rubber squeegee type wiper and I rarely scratch my film. I rise the wiper first then only apply enough pressure on the wiper to get the wetting agent off my film. You could also use lint-less wipes like Kimwipes to dry your film too. Remember, the emulsion on your film is very soft when it's wet. Handle your film with care.

Rom · Nov 16, 2010

Dear all,

Thanks a lot for all your help, clearly appreciated. In fact, after reading, i think it could be my drying area.. I will try your suggestion diapositivo to put hot water in the room before and let the dust goes down slowly.

In fact, i just leave the negs drying by themself, i do not touch them but they are usually drying for the whole night. I had a look last night to all my negs, it is only dust, no scratch.. So as you advise, i will also try to find the tetenal mirosal and test it to see.

Anyway, i was also thinking of building a small drying room for my negs, like a box of 1.5m high by 30cm square. It could be useful in place to lock the door of the bathroom.

Many thanks to all of you

Cheers

Rom

tkamiya · Nov 16, 2010

I wonder what exactly you are seeing since you said "dusty scratch." Dust will appear as white dots (or squiggly) on print where as scratch usually appear as straight lines. Dust may get on drying phase but if you don't drag it anywhere, they will appear as dots. If you do drag it, it may scratch the negative.

Drying mark can appear as lines or patches.

I dry mine in bathroom with curtain closed but with no other special care. I have not had issues with dust. Every time I see scratches, I can usually trace it to my own careless handling either at development time or later.

pentaxuser · Nov 16, 2010

The problem is most likely to be drying in an open bathroom. Have a look at the air when a shaft of sunlight penetrates the bathroom. There will always be many dust particles floating there which stick to wet film.

Two solutions: 1.Joint Best: Buy an drying cabinet with a fan in it. It dries film quickly and creates negative pressure keeping dust off the film until dry or buy a film drier from e-bay. This is a small fan which blows hot air over the reel on which the film is still attached. They appear on the U.K. e-bay occasionally. Not cheap but works well

2. Make a long box structure with wooden poles or attach two coat hangars in the form of a cross and place some transparent material over the pole structure or coat hangars to prevent dust getting to the film while it dries. If possible use a fan inside the top of the box to blow air down and out via some holes in the transparent material.

Hanging film in an open room which is large and in which the air is already full of dust will always give you problems with wet film.

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Nov 17, 2010

If I understand correctly, you say that you do not open the cassette but pull the film out for development. Each time the film passes through the velvet light trap there is a chance of scratching. You need to open the cassettes to extract the film for development.

hpulley · Nov 17, 2010

Gerald C Koch said:
If I understand correctly, you say that you do not open the cassette but pull the film out for development. Each time the film passes through the velvet light trap there is a chance of scratching. You need to open the cassettes to extract the film for development.

Is this the general consensus? I find it simpler too, leaving the film in the spool when possible though I can and do use a church key on occasion. Should I do this always?

pentaxuser · Nov 17, 2010

If the velvet light trap hasn't caused a problem when winding out and in again and there is no way round a minimum two way wind then it is unlikely to cause a problem on the third outward wind when feeding into a reel, in my opinion.

Using a retriever and feeding into a reel from the cassette makes it easier, I find. No reason not to use a key to lever off the end of the cassette if you prefer but it is unlikely to prevent scratching which hasn't already occurred. I think if manufacturers' velvet light traps on cassettes caused scratches we'd hear a lot more about it.

I have never levered off the end of a cassette and have yet to have the light trap to scratch the film.

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Nov 17, 2010

pentaxuser said:
I have never levered off the end of a cassette and have yet to have the light trap to scratch the film.
'
pentaxuser

Congratulations on your continued luck. However, saying that you have never experienced a problem is not the same as saying it doesn't exist.

I had a whole roll of film ruined from a small metal fragment that was intoduced into the velvet as the film was being rewound into the cassette. I must have come from somewhere in the camera.

pentaxuser · Nov 18, 2010

You are absolutely right Jerry but what I was trying to say was that if the outwind or rewind( both unavoidable) creates the problem as it did in your case then levering off the cassette end won't solve the problem. The scratch has already occurred

It can occasionally happen on outwind or rewind and it's a hazard that 35mm film users have to put up with. It is nasty when it does happen but thankfully it is fairly rare.

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Nov 18, 2010

pentaxuser said:
You are absolutely right Jerry but what I was trying to say was that if the outwind or rewind( both unavoidable) creates the problem as it did in your case then levering off the cassette end won't solve the problem. The scratch has already occurred
pentaxuser

Point well taken.

Leica used to make a reloadable cassette which used no felt. Nothing touched the film while it was in the camera. They were very nice but expensive. I use a lot of bulk film and reloadable cassettes. One has to be very careful tp keep them clean.

Diapositivo · Nov 18, 2010

I personally use a film retriever and do not open cassettes, not just out of a personal beginner clumsiness with loading the film onto the reel, but also out of the consideration that when you open the cassette inside the changing bag the film will expand like a spring and begin being "everywhere" in the changing bag and I think the probabilities for it to be scratched or to capture dust inside the changing bag are to be taken into consideration.

Besides, if something goes wrong with loading the film onto the reels, let's say the film remains stuck and does not advance, you can reload it inside the cassette, take everything out of the changing bag, see what you did wrong and retry. If you just open the cassette inside the changing bag you have no second attempt at loading the tank. So I think the film retriever method is probably better for beginners.

Fabrizio

pentaxuser · Nov 18, 2010

Jerry there are also cassettes called Shirley Wellard( is that a woman or the two male inventors? which are very well engineered and employ the same labyrinthine principle so no possibility of scratches as there is no felt light trap. In all my years of looking on e-bay for items photographic I have seen one once only. I think it sold for about £10 so say $16. On the basis of a lifetimes' use then still good value if you bulk roll. The drawback from what I read on the Roger Hicks/ Frances Schultz website is that the cassette compartment in modern cameras with auto most things such as wind and rewind and AF is slightly too small.

Older manual Nikons, Minoltas, Pentax etc are probably OK. Pity

pentaxuser

Gerald C Koch · Nov 19, 2010

pentaxuser said:
Jerry there are also cassettes called Shirley Wellard( is that a woman or the two male inventors? which are very well engineered and employ the same labyrinthine principle so no possibility of scratches as there is no felt light trap. In all my years of looking on e-bay for items photographic I have seen one once only. I think it sold for about £10 so say $16. On the basis of a lifetimes' use then still good value if you bulk roll. The drawback from what I read on the Roger Hicks/ Frances Schultz website is that the cassette compartment in modern cameras with auto most things such as wind and rewind and AF is slightly too small.

Older manual Nikons, Minoltas, Pentax etc are probably OK. Pity

pentaxuser

Thanks for this information. I believe that the Leica cassettes only work with older models that have a release on the baseplate. This is needed to open the trap as the baseplate is locked on. They do work with Leica copies such as the Russian ones.

An American company called Butler makes a small spiral brush designed to clean between the teeth. At about 5/32 inch in diameter it is perfect for cleaning the felt traps of reloadable cassettes. I clean mine periodicly to remove any particles.

pentaxuser · Nov 20, 2010

Thanks Jerry. I must look into getting a similar brush. Actually now I think about it, tiny dental brushes which look like miniature bottle brushes would probably do the job and I have some. As good as or better than using the sticky part of a post-it note. It is funny how talking about things results in solutions that otherwise you wouldn't think about. The power of reasoned discussion on forums.

pentaxuser

Ronald Moravec · Nov 20, 2010

Pulling film from the can at the wrong angle can cause scratches. So do fingers, squeegees, sponges etc even if perfectly clean. They can pick up a bit of debris from the film and drag it down. Drip dry.

the whole needs to be hospital operating room clean. Including the air and water.

Use water and air filters. In 40 years you will learn this on your own or you can start now.

Rom · Nov 21, 2010

Hi eveybody,

Thanks for your attention and congrats to have follow and contribut to make a quite interesting discution.

So i have retried yesterday morning, still not opening the cassette, as Diapositivo said, i think, for me, is more safe to do not open the cassette than to open it. Indeed, if something happens i can rewind it and check.

Fo the dev, i have followed your advise, putted hot water in the bathroom to "clean" the dust in the air. Wash, rewash and rerewash all my cans for the dev..

Let them dry completely before enterring the room (in fact my toilets and bathroom). So, my beautiful neighboor was happy i just squatted her bathroom one or two times and have the joy to see her beautiful eyes..

And then, results were much much better !!

It remains a few, just a few on some negs. I had a spray from tetenal but it does not seems to be efficient. I still do not touch the film because i don't want to kill it.

So, to put away the last small pieces of dust, which type of product you think i should use to clean my negs after drying?

Many thanks in advance

++

Rom

PS : Sorry to do not put any images attached but i will be available soon to have a flatbed scanner. So i hope it will help me to share with people here.

Diapositivo · Nov 21, 2010

You can clean the support side of film with pretty much everything, I would avoid liquids leaving residues such as denaturated alcohol, so the cheapest options probably are distilled water or maybe pure alcohol in case of real stains.

The emulsion side requires more attention. You can use specific detergents like PEC-12 (with its own tissue, PEC pads, for instance).

On hybridphoto.com people reports using "sweeper swiffer" on film (gently) with PEC-12. An experienced professionist in another forum said he used "extra-refined lighter fluid" with "tissues or a lens cloth". That's true also as a cleaning practice before scanning.

Fabrizio

hpulley · Nov 21, 2010

I just use a blower, occasionally a fine brush for the last bit of dust but usually a blow bulb (NOT canned air) will do it.

BTW, you should do a portrait of your beautiful neighbor and her eyes!

Rom · Dec 8, 2010

Dear all,

I want to keep update this thread to thanks all of you for your great help.

Issue is solved

So, it is not the perfect solution because each darkoom is different like each environnement.

Here it is my process to obtain cool and clean negs:

- all the tools are clean and wash a new time before each dev.
- water tap for dev bath, stop & fix
- demineralised water for the wash

- hot water in the bathroom (actually the safe room for drying)

- i leave them dry like this

And that's it

Tonight, i was able to obtain very clean negs from one 6x6 and one 135

All the best

Rom

How to avoid dusty scratch on my negs ?

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