How to achieve Grain with Trix

vizzo · Apr 3, 2006

Hi all,

this is my first post on this site.Well I know a lot of people are looking to develop films without grain but my idea is the other way around:I want grain.I use trix rated at 400 EI and developed in xtol stock at 20 degrees 7 min.But my images don´t have any grain at all.Some of them when I crop 25% of the image and make a 24*30 cm print I see grain but it´s a very awful dirty grain.I want to achieve a grain like you see on the pics of Gary winogrand or Bruce gilden, James Nachtwey, Salgado...They all have a very nice marked grain even in small prints of 18*25.
I assume grain is only achieved at the film development.
I´ve been looking around already and suggestions were to use acufine and trix rated at 1000 ASA.Living in Barcelona with mostly very sunny days doesn´t make it easy to shot at 1000.400 it´s actually perfect to cover 90% of the street situations.I will use Acufine and trix at 1000 but on cloudy days and late hours.
Any suggestions of which dev. Bruce Gilden, Winogrand uses/used?Do Paper dev. also help to increase de grain detail?
If the solution would be to use for example tmax 100 pushed to 400 it won´t be the best solution because of the lost of shadow detail.
KR for listening(reading).

Woolliscroft · Apr 3, 2006

I find with Tri-X that grain just happens. If it is looking a bit vague, might your enlarger focus be slightly off, or the lens either not good enough or stopped down too little (or too much) for optimum resolution?

David

david b · Apr 3, 2006

shake shake shake

vizzo · Apr 3, 2006

Woolliscroft said:
I find with Tri-X that grain just happens. If it is looking a bit vague, might your enlarger focus be slightly off, or the lens either not good enough or stopped down too little (or too much) for optimum resolution?

David

Well the neg is in perfect focus and normally I choose f5.6 for big and f11 for small prints.

vizzo · Apr 3, 2006

david b said:
shake shake shake

I shake every 30 seconds in 7 mins so I don´t think this is the solution.

jim appleyard · Apr 3, 2006

Dev the film in Rodinal, underexpose and overdevelop develop with longer times and/or more agitation, crop to use a smaller part of the photo and/or use a wide angle lens and crop.

David Brown · Apr 3, 2006

jim appleyard said:
Dev the film in Rodinal...

You might even start with D76 or Ilford ID-11. Rodinal will give you more. And, there's always shooting at ISO 1000 and developing in Acufine.

Welcome to APUG.

David

Jim Jones · Apr 3, 2006

The modern very fast B&W films have fairly large and sharp-edged grain. I've always tried to minimize grain with Kodak T-Max 3200, and don't have the answer to your problem. Developing it or Delta 3200 in Rodinal may help. You may need to shoot through a neutral density film to have normal options of aperture and shutter speed, though.

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 3, 2006

Try it with Dektol, 1:3. I don't have a working time to suggest for it, as I usually did this with TMAX 3200 @ ISO 1000. Try 4 minutes and see what you get. You should end up with punchy, tight but very grainy film.

titrisol · Apr 3, 2006

expose as 800, develop in Rodinal 1+25

Bruce Watson · Apr 3, 2006

Graininess comes from a handful of different sources. Primarily film speed (you've got that in Tri-X - trix is for kids ;-), developer, and density.

To increase graininess, switch to an acutance developer (if you want to stick with XTOL, dilute it 1:3). Develop a little longer to give you a more dense and therefore more contrasty negative.

For extra credit, do all the above at the highest temperature that will let you get even development (typically 5 minutes or more). The higher temperature will let you get that last little bit of extra graininess.

BTW, agitation doesn't directly effect graininess. It does indirectly by increasing density. Two negatives developed to the same CI, one with increased agitation and the other with increased development time, will exhibit the same level of graininess. I believe that both Henry and Haist report this, but it's been so long since I looked it up that I don't remember exactly who said what.

NikoSperi · Apr 3, 2006

TheFlyingCamera said:
Try it with Dektol, 1:3. I don't have a working time to suggest for it, as I usually did this with TMAX 3200 @ ISO 1000. Try 4 minutes and see what you get. You should end up with punchy, tight but very grainy film.

You mean the film in Dektol?

titrisol · Apr 3, 2006

Or any other paper developer yes

NikoSperi said:
You mean the film in Dektol?

removed account4 · Apr 3, 2006

i'd suggest dektol too - dilute it about 1:5 or 1:10 and process at your own risk for 7-10 mins.

have fun
john

jim appleyard · Apr 3, 2006

Somewhere in this Black Hole I call a house, I have an article in a late '70's photo mag about a woman who liked to shoot Tri-X at an EI of 1600 or so, meter the highlights of the scene and soup in Dektol. Yup, Dektol. Along with other bennies, she liked the increased grain. I'll have to find that article.

avandesande · Apr 3, 2006

I am not sure about underexposure. Underexposed trix grain has a dirty look to it. I would just expose normally and do the 1:25 rodinal.

kwmullet · Apr 3, 2006

some folks think shooting tri-x at a high EI and running it in Diafine results in negs that are too thin, even though the Diafine box recommends 1600 and lots of folks say 1250. I find I get the most satisfactory results and some nice looking grain by shooting Tri-X at 400 (actually, in dim light, I tend to even pull back a stop) and processing normally in Diafine. You might want to try that, or if you know someone with some Diafine, let them soup it for you.

Aw heck... PM me and I'll give you my mailing address. If you don't mind sending a roll of film to Texas, exposed as you prefer to expose it, I'll soup it in Diafine for you and send you the negs back so you can see what Diafine development looks like without having to buy a box of chemistry you may only use once.

-KwM-

Gerald Koch · Apr 3, 2006

My comment didn't get moved. Dektol 1+3 3.5 min @ 24C or 1+10 5 min @ 22 C. Data from the Massive Development Chart. You can reticulate this film easily to increase the impression of grain.

vizzo · Apr 3, 2006

thanx to all at the moment.I see there´s a lot to do for me.Ill try rodinal at first and after dektol and diafine.It would be nice to see some online examples although the scans are not the same as the real ones.

raucousimages · Apr 3, 2006

I had an article by a woman who shot boxing with tri-x at ISO 4000 developed in HC-110 replenisher (not developer). 1:15, 75f, 5 to 7 min. My negs were grainy and had good contrast, a nice look for somthing like boxing.

AlanC · Apr 3, 2006

vizzo,
You could try Classic pan 400. This is more grainy than TriX.

Alan Clark

jhavard · Apr 3, 2006

When I decided to go into b&w, I couldn't wait to see the results of my first roll of 400TX. The developer (D-76) was at 101F when I poured it into the daylight tank and developed it for about a minute off the 72 degree mark. Talk about grain! The emulsion bubbled in a few spots, though.

tim elder · Apr 3, 2006

I've found D-76 to provide more grain and a grittier look than Xtol with Tri-X (at 400). From what I've heard, D-76 was Winogrand's usual developer.

Tim

Paul Howell · Apr 3, 2006

I think the question is how much (or how pernounced) grain do want to see? You have a range from D 76 to DK50 to Dektol.

Paul

wildbill · Apr 3, 2006

Here's a 35mm tri-x neg rated @400 dev'd in rodinal 1+25. lot's of grain even in a 5x7 It's too much for me but you may dig it.

vinny

How to achieve Grain with Trix

vizzo

Woolliscroft

david b

vizzo

vizzo

jim appleyard

David Brown

Jim Jones

TheFlyingCamera

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titrisol

Bruce Watson

NikoSperi

titrisol

removed account4

jim appleyard

avandesande

kwmullet

Gerald Koch

vizzo

raucousimages

AlanC

jhavard

tim elder

Paul Howell

wildbill

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