How tight should the winding action be on a Rolleiflex?

[Grim Tuesday]

I have two rolleiflex 3.5e cameras. They are so similar that their serial numbers are even only a few thousand apart. However, they do have significantly different thightnesses when winding. On one camera, the winding is smooth but seems stiffer. There is a noticeable bump on its forward stroke and on its reverse. On the other camera, I feel considerably less resistance to turning forward and there is very little "bump" to turn through. I am trying to figure out which camera has "more miles left on it", the one with the slightly stiffer winding or the slightly looser?

Some other clues: The camera with looser winding has a sticker indicating it was serviced around 1978. Based on the condition of leatherette and lenses, the loose winding camera got more use. The loose winding camera's shutter runs slower than the stiff winding camera. The stiff winding camera looks like it has never had its leatherette removed, or someone did an amazing job putting it back. But its shutter runs more accurately (like...really accurately at least at slow speeds, 1 second = 1 second, the loose one is 1 second = 1.66 seconds approximately). Finally, there are more scratches and wear to the lenses of the loose winder.

All indications I see point to loose winding being a sign of a camera that got heavy use, rather than it being a sign of a camera that was well lubricated and adjusted. Is this the correct interpretation? Or is it all a red herring? How tight does everyone else's rolleis wind?

 

[campy51]

Send the better looking one out for a CLA. I just sent a 3.5F to Procamera in Virginia that the wind is a little stiff and the slow speeds are off and they quoted me $150 for a cleaning assuming no parts are needed. I hope to hear from them this week. I used to have a 2.8C that looked like it was used heavy but the focus and film wind were very smooth as can be and I wish I never sold it.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

For a user camera the lens is most important part IMHO - so I would choose to keep the camera with the best lens - the other parts like its shutter can be cleaned and lubed.

 

[jp498]

My automat changes tightness based on where it is in the roll. (start of a roll is a little tighter than the ending) It also changes with temperature, indicating lubrication also has effect.

 

[shutterfinger]

The spring tightness on the film spools affects winding tension.
One will need to open the wind side of the camera and inspect the wear on the mechanisms to determine usage. The shutter speeds after a full tear down CLA will help determine how much use it has seen. A leaf shutter run until it stops will have far more wear than one that was serviced once the speeds were 1/2 to 1 stop slow. Slow speeds go first and frequently get ignored.
Lens surface condition is more important.

 

[Dan Daniel]

There are three types of tightness in winding a Rolleiflex. One is the shutter cocking, which leads to that point of increased resistance. One is the overall dirt and old grease in the shutter cocking system, which has a fair number of places to bind up.One is the actual film spool winding, not just the spring-loaded gear in the chamber but also the cleanliness of the main drive gears.

That point of maximum resistance is the limit of the shutter cocking mechanism as it pushes the cocking rack into position. This is adjustable, the travel. Too little motion and the shutter doesn't cock (often the leaves will open and close as you rotate the wind lever). Too much travel and you have pushed the cocking rack to its maximum position and are now having to use that energy to flex parts and stress the system. The cocking mechanism travel is adjustable.

Lots of surfaces and lots of changes in direction of forces as you use the shutter cocking mechanism. Any dirt or old grease will drag it down. I've seen Rolleis where cleaning the cocking mechanism around the lens takes away enough gunk to make winding become noticably easier.

The film spool gearing and spring-loaded transfer axle can all be cleaned and adjusted it's usually not going to make a huge difference. If you think the spring-loaded gear is too tight, here's the check- with an empty spool in the upper chamber, the gear should be just barely off of the spool core. I've seen it set so that you need to seriously press the gear to simply get a spool into the chamber. the adjustment is under the focus side panel.

So, which camera? The one with the best lens, of course. Get the shutter cleaned and adjusted. Get the lens board aligned, viewing lens in sync. All the rest is gravy.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There are three types of tightness in winding a Rolleiflex. One is the shutter cocking, which leads to that point of increased resistance. One is the overall dirt and old grease in the shutter cocking system, which has a fair number of places to bind up.One is the actual film spool winding, not just the spring-loaded gear in the chamber but also the cleanliness of the main drive gears.

That point of maximum resistance is the limit of the shutter cocking mechanism as it pushes the cocking rack into position. This is adjustable, the travel. Too little motion and the shutter doesn't cock (often the leaves will open and close as you rotate the wind lever). Too much travel and you have pushed the cocking rack to its maximum position and are now having to use that energy to flex parts and stress the system. The cocking mechanism travel is adjustable.

Lots of surfaces and lots of changes in direction of forces as you use the shutter cocking mechanism. Any dirt or old grease will drag it down. I've seen Rolleis where cleaning the cocking mechanism around the lens takes away enough gunk to make winding become noticably easier.

The film spool gearing and spring-loaded transfer axle can all be cleaned and adjusted it's usually not going to make a huge difference. If you think the spring-loaded gear is too tight, here's the check- with an empty spool in the upper chamber, the gear should be just barely off of the spool core. I've seen it set so that you need to seriously press the gear to simply get a spool into the chamber. the adjustment is under the focus side panel.

So, which camera? The one with the best lens, of course. Get the shutter cleaned and adjusted. Get the lens board aligned, viewing lens in sync. All the rest is gravy.

Thank you so much Dan for this detailed answer, it answers exactly what I was wondering! Is the resistance on the forward stroke also the cocking lever moving?

 

[Dan Daniel]

Thank you so much Dan for this detailed answer, it answers exactly what I was wondering! Is the resistance on the forward stroke also the cocking lever moving?

Do you mean that the resistance grows and reaches a 'bump' in the motion? If so, yes. The cocking action linkages operate in either direction. Often times people seem to think that the forward motion is the film winding and that the backward motion is the shutter cocking. But nope, shutter cocking happens on the forward wind, also. It is just that on the backward wind you are using the exact same linkages in reverse. On the backward wind it isn't actually cocking the shutter, that has already happened.

When you wind forward, you are operating both the shutter cocking mechanism and the film winding mechanism. When you wind backward, you are operating only the shutter cocking mechanism. Ratchets and pawls keep the film winding mechanism from going backwards, and you aren't actually moving any film so it feels easier (because it is easier, less work).

If you mean the general resistance throughout the forward motion, that's the basic dirt and gummy grease at work.

 

[Down Under]

For a user camera the lens is most important part IMHO - so I would choose to keep the camera with the best lens - the other parts like its shutter can be cleaned and lubed.

Keep them both. Rolleis in any age or condition seem to be going up in value on Ebay by A$100 per month here in Australia. At that rate even a boiler will some day fetch you enough to fund the deposit on a quality used car if not a house.

Seriously, Rolleis should be evaluated on a camera by camera basis. Your 'loose' TLR may have been used and abused by a pro photographer, or it may be that it was badly serviced or only partly serviced or (which is probably more likely) haphazardly tinkered with by a well-meaning amateur who ended up doing more damage than repair. I own a 3.5E2 Planar lens model (I bought it new, so its sad physical condition is entirely my doing, for which I plead non cospos nada) that has served me well but looks like it was salvaged from the Titanic. I've had it professionally serviced two times, the last CLA in 2003 just before the Rollei factory trained techo who did the job retired and closed up his shop. It has among other problems an egg-shaped spot of lens separation but it still produces superb images, especially chromes, and lets me easily make B&W eight by tens as easily as contact prints. Ditto a Rolleicord Vb I picked up at an estate sale for almost nothing. It looks well used but functions well, the shutter speeds are 95% spot-on, focus is smooth, all the buttons do what they are supposed to, but the cosmetics, eh heh. Recently the daughter of the original owner was cleaning out the family home and found all the invoices relating to this camera, which I now have. It also had been CLA'd two times in its half century existence.

The moral of this somewhat long-winded tale is a CLA by a reputable service center will probably fix up the loose focusing problem. If the repair person finds other problems while dismantling the camera, you should expect them to tell you about this before continuing with the cleaning and fixing. It's how ethical repair centers work.

Others have posted good advice in this thread and I've learned some things. All greatly appreciated. Many thanks!!

 

[guangong]

A well maintained Rolleiflex TLR is practically indestructible. Have owned my 2.8F since early 1970s and still in perfect shape. A fitted case is an absolute necessity to absorb occasional knocks and tumbles. Case without cover does not interfere with speed of operation.

 

[jp498]

I've tossed aside fitted leather neverready cases... They look like it would be difficult to load film with the case attached. Perhaps now is a time to make an easier case with newer materials.

 

[Ron (Netherlands)]

I've tossed aside fitted leather neverready cases... They look like it would be difficult to load film with the case attached. Perhaps now is a time to make an easier case with newer materials.

They don't make (and may be can't make) the old ones anymore - I strongly prefer original cases - you can always use the camera with only a strap attached, but wouldn't throw it in your bag without

Keep them both. Rolleis in any age or condition seem to be going up in value on Ebay by A$100 per month here in Australia.

thanks for the tip: I'll sell my stash of Rollies then better in your country

 

[Down Under]

Tthanks for the tip: I'll sell my stash of Rollies then better in your country

Me, I'll invest in vintage Rollei leather cases to go with my (fast disappearing) collection of vintage Tasmanian redwines.

Ron, a slight glitch in your plan may be the Ozzy dollah which rather resembles the Mexican peso in value. This week it's riding at 70 cents to the Yankee version and two to your Euro, but it has been as low as 60 AUS cents/US$1 earlier in the year. Not good for those of us who order our 120 film or anything else photographic from overseas.