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How old is too old

MolBasser

Member
Allowing Ads
Joined
Dec 12, 2009
Messages
115
Location
Chico, CA
Format
35mm
Hello,

And, yes I know that I should try and find out, but I was wondering how quickly paper performance degrades.

I was gifted about 300 sheets of Kodak polycontrast III RC paper with an exp. date of 1/06.

Any chance it will still be decent or useful at all? I think it was stored in a garage in southern California so it probably has seen some heat.

On the plus side, I have 300 sheets of 8x10 paper that will be at least fun to play with, if not make decent photographs.

My chems were attempted to be delivered today. Tomorrow I will leave a note to deliver to my manager at the apt.

This weekend I will have B/W prints. Maybe dubious quality, but I will have them!

MolBasser
 
You'll probably still be able to get quite good prints on that paper, even if it saw some heat in California. Even after official expiry, paper does last for quite a while.
 
I'm anxious to find out this weekend....It is an unopened box, so hopefully that will help. (well, one unopened 250 count box and one 1/3 full open box).

MolBasser
 
How long would this paper keep in the freezer?
 
Watch for the mottle. I have seen some expired kodak paper that gives a nasty texture which may be perceived as grain. The best way to try is to test it.
 
Cut a sheet in half. Develop and fix one piece without exposing it. Just fix the other.
If they match, the paper is fine.
 
The boxes I have are sealed. I guess I would want to put a few sheets in a paper safe and leave the rest in the freezer, right? Would it be best to put a bag around the box after it's been opened as well?
 
bdial said:
Cut a sheet in half. Develop and fix one piece without exposing it. Just fix the other.
If they match, the paper is fine.
Click to expand...

That is interesting. I will do that for sure.

MolBasser
 
MolBasser said:
...I know that I should try and find out, but I was wondering how quickly paper performance degrades.
Click to expand...

You are correct, and it depends, respectively.
 
tiberiustibz said:
Watch for the mottle. I have seen some expired kodak paper that gives a nasty texture which may be perceived as grain. The best way to try is to test it.
Click to expand...

I've just binned about 700' of Polycontrast RC roll paper because the mottle had got too bad even for proof prints. Not too upset as it started off as 1088' and didn't cost me very much. This was expiry 12/2007, and stored in my cold darkroom in winter, and the cool understairs cupboard in summer.

As the others say, testing is the only way to find out for sure.

Ian
 
Others have pretty much covered what has to be said, but there's one last thing. If the top sheet of the stack is fogged, it doesn't necessarily mean that all of them are, get a sheet from the middle and it might be just fine. Actually, the top sheet of an Ilford Multigrade IV FB I got from a deal was severely fogged and the second was spotless! These were from a 10 sheet unopened envelope.
 
I used some old Agfa Brovira postcard paper from the 70s - perfect in every way!
Have also used some Ilford Ilfospeed from the late 80s/early 90s and some boxes have been useless, others perfect.

Depends a lot on storage conditions and I really do think a lot of luck!
 
tiberiustibz said:
Watch for the mottle. I have seen some expired kodak paper that gives a nasty texture which may be perceived as grain. The best way to try is to test it.
Click to expand...

I had a box of 100 sheets in 5 X 7 that didn't have this problem. I'm not sure of the date or how it was stored before it got to me.
 
Someone sold me a roll of Fine Grain release positive 7302, which is basically photo paper emulsion on on a film base. I decided to check a foot of it last week and discovered that it barely has any fog and the edge printing (exposed at time of perforation) is clear. The edge print has a date code which appears to be 1974 !
 
Do watch for the mottle. Really. Interestingly, the mottle may not be apparent if you run the simple test of fixing 1/2 sheet and running the other half through the entire process without exposure. Sometimes the fog level is low enough to not do anything on its own, but give it a little exposure and it shows up. Paper that's lightly, but evenly fogged can sometimes be salvaged with a little bit of benzotrazole in the developer. But this sort of mottled fog that happens with old Kodak papers is not even and can't be corrected. Too bad really. Kodak papers were good and attractively priced when they were available. I'm glad that I learned about the mottled fog problem early on. Kept me from stocking up with paper that would likely go bad before I used it when production ceased.
 
Newer papers have chemical aging built in so they need not be time aged by the manufacturer, thus saving on inventory.

The down side is they only last 2/3 years from date of manufacture when they fog.

I have some 50 year old Kodak Medalist paper that still works. I have three year old "new" that does not.

Try a sheet and look at the borders, if not white try some antfog which will slow it down some or just toss it.
 
At one point in my life I gave up photography and packed away all my equipment and darkroom supplies. 18 years later I rediscovered my photography and began processing film that had been exposed 18 years earlier. Thje film processed beautifully and I printed on 18 year old fiber-based paper(no RC paper at that time!), and the prints came out wonderfully. You certainly won't lose anything by trying it.
 
bdial said:
Cut a sheet in half. Develop and fix one piece without exposing it. Just fix the other.
If they match, the paper is fine.
Click to expand...

I have seen paper that can pass this simple test and still not work well. If the paper has seen no light it may stay white in the developer. But if it has seen a little light it may always show a darker shade of grey then you want. In other words you high-lights will be grey in your prints. Sometimes it is worth keeping expired paper because some negatives may print better in expired paper. It’s rare but it has worked for me.

The way to actually test is to put a sheet on your enlarger and stop the lens down. Cover the paper except for a one inch strip. Then do a series of 1 second exposures and each time move the covering and inch to expose one more inch. Do not expose the last inch to any light. This way you will have 10 strips on a sheet of paper. The first strip will have seen 10 one second exposures and the last none. If the paper is truly still good you should have a nice step gradient. If the steps with very short exposure are muddy grey the paper is fogged. Also there should be no pattern within each of the strips. There should not be a mottled look. If there is then you also have an age problem.

Also remember that there is no such thing as an expiration date. Maybe a best before date. The only reason for a date is so you get the same result with each new box you buy. But just because your paper does not work like new paper does not mean it is worthless.
 
Just bought a 100 sht. box of Kodak Polymax RC at the camera swap met in Pasadena that was out dated in 2006 for $15 and it is fogged ,have not tried it with litho.
 
Might save you some time with your polymax, if you put a drop of lith B on a test strip (lights on). If it rapidly develops (usually purple), then the stuff won't lith. My guess is it won't.
 
I'll try that Rich,was wondering if potassium bromide can be used as an anti foggent .
 
Don't know if potassium bromide will make an effective anti-foggant, but benzotriazole will. One thing is certain though, anti-foggants are really only effective if the fogging is very slight. You can expect a decrease in the paper's speed if you use benzotriazole, and you probably won't be able to get the full range of contrasts that a fresh paper will afford you. Even if it will work, Polymax paper had a weird way of fogging. It doesn't develop an even fog all over the paper. The stuff I had developed a mottled fog that was impossible to control satisfactorily. When it was fresh, it was great. When it got old, it was impossible to use it in any conventional manner. I still have some of the mottled RC stuff that I use for making dodging masks or a burn cards. The material is stiff enough for small dodging tools, and big enough for larger masks.
 
Thats what this paper is doing Frank,its like a xerox machine running out of ink or dirty.
 
i Have kodak, Agfa papers from late 70s, bought it from a "collector" off craigslist, been in the basement for don't know how long, They curl a little bit, or, a LOT, lol, But, Print just fine, and i like them better than new papers.
 
mike c said:
Thats what this paper is doing Frank,its like a xerox machine running out of ink or dirty.
Click to expand...

That's a very apt description. The paper is trashed now and isn't good for much. But here's an idea. You can fix out all the silver halides and then coat the paper with a cyanotype emulsion. Naturally, you'll only be able to make contact prints in sunlight or with a strong UV light source, but it's a fun thing to do. Cyanotype emulsions are available commercially, or you can make up your own.
 
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