How old is too old for 110 film in a point and shoot?

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 10, 2019

I've been thinking about shooting a few more 110 rolls this year- I already got some FPP Fukkatsu, a peacock roll, and I'm planning on a rescale roll and some expired rolls.

Now this is where my curiosity comes into play. I don't have an advanced auto 110 camera, only simple point and shoots. So I'm wondering, how old would be too old for ISO 100-200 films (Obviously, no Kodacolor IIs), but... would mid 80s expired 400 speed still work (Outside) or would that be setting myself up for an experiment?

Paul Howell · Apr 10, 2019

Depends on how well the film was stored. If I had a roll I would shoot at 1/2 the box speed and hope for the best. I have a couple of boxes of APS film, late 90s Fuji 400, shot a roll last week as my local camera shop has a mini lab and can process APS, it is starting to show some fog and a little thin. I'm going to shoot the remaining rolls in the next couple of weeks before they develop anymore fog. With my Olympus APS camera I cannot change the ISO, I expect the negatives to be thin.

Pentode · Apr 10, 2019

Any time you use expired film, even recently expired film, you’re setting yourself up for an experiment.

400 speed color film from the 1980s is not something I would take a chance on, personally. The general guidelines are:
Film stored cold and dry (preferably refrigerated) ages better than film that wasn’t.
Slow film (100 or lower) ages better than fast.
Black and white ages better than color.

None of the above, however, guarantees longevity, though. They just improve your odds.

I use expired film a lot but I adjust my expectations accordingly. Colors will shift. Speed will drop. Contrast will drop. Grain will increase.

Under perfect storage conditions you can get lucky but it will still be luck and even film stored under perfect conditions can come up blank when you process it.

As long as you’re prepared for the worst you might have some fun with it. I suggest limiting yourself to subject matter you could go back and photograph again if the film turns out to be bad. Odds are good - especially with 400 speed color - you’re going to end up with distracting grain, faded colors and washed out contrast.

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 10, 2019

Pentode said:
Any time you use expired film, even recently expired film, you’re setting yourself up for an experiment.

400 speed color film from the 1980s is not something I would take a chance on, personally. The general guidelines are:
Film stored cold and dry (preferably refrigerated) ages better than film that wasn’t.
Slow film (100 or lower) ages better than fast.
Black and white ages better than color.

None of the above, however, guarantees longevity, though. They just improve your odds.

I use expired film a lot but I adjust my expectations accordingly. Colors will shift. Speed will drop. Contrast will drop. Grain will increase.

Under perfect storage conditions you can get lucky but it will still be luck and even film stored under perfect conditions can come up blank when you process it.

As long as you’re prepared for the worst you might have some fun with it. I suggest limiting yourself to subject matter you could go back and photograph again if the film turns out to be bad. Odds are good - especially with 400 speed color - you’re going to end up with distracting grain, faded colors and washed out contrast.

I've had good luck with some expired 200 speed films, But the two 400 speed films I tried, That was interesting.
First, a 2000 expired gold 400
Second a 2006 expired gold 400 in the exact same camera, exact same city, different location, different day.

I'd also say I'm pretty good with expired film on manual cameras so long as I know the expiratory date, but I don't know what the limits of point and shoot are.

Pentode · Apr 10, 2019

I found a half-finished roll of 400 in my 110 instamatic - left in a closet since around 1982. This was sometime last year.

I went ahead and finished the roll. I figured the original images would be toast but the new ones might come out. ...maybe.

I assumed the color would have shifted to who-knows-where so I opted to use my tried and true method for expired c-41 film: Rodinal. Sure, the result won’t be in color but there are pretty good odds of getting some sort of usable, scannable image.

Nope. Not a chance. The roll came out entirely black. I’ve actually never seen a roll so fogged before or since. Now that’s obviously an extreme example, but it’s a reminder that old film - especially fast color film - is always a roll of the dice.

TheGreatGasMaskMan’s second image shows how weird color shifts can get, and that film was “only” 13 years old. (Although I sorta like the look of that image, to be honest)

trendland · Apr 10, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I've had good luck with some expired 200 speed films, But the two 400 speed films I tried, That was interesting.
First, a 2000 expired gold 400View attachment 221119
Second a 2006 expired gold 400 in the exact same camera, exact same city, different location, different day.View attachment 221120

I'd also say I'm pretty good with expired film on manual cameras so long as I know the expiratory date, but I don't know what the limits of point and shoot are.

I would give a todays NEW c41 Film a minimal guarantee of the double - 3 times of its official
guarantee (till expiration on the box) example :

Kodak/Fuji bought yesterday with expiration 03/21 is with rather good results usable up to
03/25 from normal storage (room temperature) with storage + 5 - + 8 degree (couled) it becomes complicate = the time of real color shifts can be avoided from couled storage for much a longer time (period) than compared to room temperature! A guess is x 3 times! That makes in summary:
....room temperature = around 4 years after (official) expiration the films HAVE to be good!
.....couled storage = around 12 years after (official) expiration the films CAN be good!

But because you allways not know exactly the storage condition you should for sure (against all statings of sellers you don't know) calculate a storage of room temperature!
In worst cases expired films are stored from catastrophy condidions = half a year in a car, in winter near the heating, in summer near a window (sunlight with temperatures > 30 degree! That conditions can destroy a New Film within expiration guarantee = after weeks!
In more worste cases you can destroy a film within hours !
For example during hollidays in South France (in hot summer) then films are not designed to be forgotten in the car! For just 3 days......! Makes around 72 hours for 3 days = 3 x 12 hours from temperatures at about 50 - 75 degree C!

The max. expiration I would trust a c41 (in normal amatheuric storage = that is room temperature
~ 20 - 24degree average temps ) is around 10 years!
Some films have first shifts beginning 4 - 5 years after expiration, some films are total normal after
6 - 7 years after expiration! Some films (I have the idea of are good for suite a long while - after this they collapsed from color shifts within some additional month) !
Your. Film you give as example looks like Trendland would state : complete destroyed!!

So if I speak about quite OK that means = little - up to lower midt shifts AND little bit more grain!
Comparable with results of bad labs from lousy workflow!

And that you may forget with longer expiration of around 10 years!
But if you have luck a Film can be expiration date of 1995 but was freezed till 2009 and after this couled for further 5 years....? But who can guarantee????
My last forgotten film = Kodachrome25 was shot around 1991 and hold colors from latend images till 2007 that makes 16 years! At room temperature! But colors were real bad!
10 max 12 years (often such films saw a couler from inside for a while)!

For you that would mean : Forget films from expiration before 2009!

And at the same side that is your experience - right? 2006 - a good year for some wine!

with regards

PS : Pros often sell freezed films - if you identify a photo out the freezer on ebay with hundred of rolls
that may indecate = indeed freezing storage - but it is no must!
But pros don't use 110 films! Pentax Auto 110 was used from a handfull pros!
But I guess they all lost job after a while......

trendland · Apr 10, 2019

Pentode said:
Any time you use expired film, even recently expired film, you’re setting yourself up for an experiment.

400 speed color film from the 1980s is not something I would take a chance on, personally. The general guidelines are:
Film stored cold and dry (preferably refrigerated) ages better than film that wasn’t.
Slow film (100 or lower) ages better than fast.
Black and white ages better than color.

None of the above, however, guarantees longevity, though. They just improve your odds.

I use expired film a lot but I adjust my expectations accordingly. Colors will shift. Speed will drop. Contrast will drop. Grain will increase.

Under perfect storage conditions you can get lucky but it will still be luck and even film stored under perfect conditions can come up blank when you process it.

As long as you’re prepared for the worst you might have some fun with it. I suggest limiting yourself to subject matter you could go back and photograph again if the film turns out to be bad. Odds are good - especially with 400 speed color - you’re going to end up with distracting grain, faded colors and washed out contrast.

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I've had good luck with some expired 200 speed films, But the two 400 speed films I tried, That was interesting.
First, a 2000 expired gold 400View attachment 221119
Second a 2006 expired gold 400 in the exact same camera, exact same city, different location, different day.View attachment 221120

I'd also say I'm pretty good with expired film on manual cameras so long as I know the expiratory date, but I don't know what the limits of point and shoot are.

So here is a good example for your stuff :

07/2006 that's not looking good!

That stuff is from an age I personally would give a try (with good feeling)!

But I realy would prefer stuff of expiration 2012....2014 that isn't avaible - and that seams to be your problem!
Is lomo Tiger 110 btw. expired stuff also ?

with regards

TheGreatGasMaskMan · Apr 10, 2019

trendland said:
I would give a todays NEW c41 Film a minimal guarantee of the double - 3 times of its official
guarantee (till expiration on the box) example :

Kodak/Fuji bought yesterday with expiration 03/21 is with rather good results usable up to
03/25 from normal storage (room temperature) with storage + 5 - + 8 degree (couled) it becomes complicate = the time of real color shifts can be avoided from couled storage for much a longer time (period) than compared to room temperature! A guess is x 3 times! That makes in summary:
....room temperature = around 4 years after (official) expiration the films HAVE to be good!
.....couled storage = around 12 years after (official) expiration the films CAN be good!

But because you allways not know exactly the storage condition you should for sure (against all statings of sellers you don't know) calculate a storage of room temperature!
In worst cases expired films are stored from catastrophy condidions = half a year in a car, in winter near the heating, in summer near a window (sunlight with temperatures > 30 degree! That conditions can destroy a New Film within expiration guarantee = after weeks!
In more worste cases you can destroy a film within hours !
For example during hollidays in South France (in hot summer) then films are not designed to be forgotten in the car! For just 3 days......! Makes around 72 hours for 3 days = 3 x 12 hours from temperatures at about 50 - 75 degree C!

The max. expiration I would trust a c41 (in normal amatheuric storage = that is room temperature
~ 20 - 24degree average temps ) is around 10 years!
Some films have first shifts beginning 4 - 5 years after expiration, some films are total normal after
6 - 7 years after expiration! Some films (I have the idea of are good for suite a long while - after this they collapsed from color shifts within some additional month) !
Your. Film you give as example looks like Trendland would state : complete destroyed!!

So if I speak about quite OK that means = little - up to lower midt shifts AND little bit more grain!
Comparable with results of bad labs from lousy workflow!

And that you may forget with longer expiration of around 10 years!
But if you have luck a Film can be expiration date of 1995 but was freezed till 2009 and after this couled for further 5 years....? But who can guarantee????
My last forgotten film = Kodachrome25 was shot around 1991 and hold colors from latend images till 2007 that makes 16 years! At room temperature! But colors were real bad!
10 max 12 years (often such films saw a couler from inside for a while)!

For you that would mean : Forget films from expiration before 2009!

And at the same side that is your experience - right? 2006 - a good year for some wine!

with regards

PS : Pros often sell freezed films - if you identify a photo out the freezer on ebay with hundred of rolls
that may indecate = indeed freezing storage - but it is no must!
But pros don't use 110 films! Pentax Auto 110 was used from a handfull pros!
But I guess they all lost job after a while......

I now offer you this challenge, all ebay buys as well:

2000 expired superia 200, shot last spring

Kodacolor gold 200, age unknown, partially exposed when I got it. still receptive to light.

1997 expired walgreens 200 film. Also quite good.

Finally, another partially exposed kodacolor gold 200- bottom shot is what I'd like to avoid.

I actually quite enjoy color shifts, but would at least like my images properly exposed/compensatable in scanning.

trendland · Apr 10, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I've been thinking about shooting a few more 110 rolls this year- I already got some FPP Fukkatsu, a peacock roll, and I'm planning on a rescale roll and some expired rolls.

Now this is where my curiosity comes into play. I don't have an advanced auto 110 camera, only simple point and shoots. So I'm wondering, how old would be too old for ISO 100-200 films (Obviously, no Kodacolor IIs), but... would mid 80s expired 400 speed still work (Outside) or would that be setting myself up for an experiment?

Aha - yes I see here is your problem - I wonder about ! In gerneral I would not care so much about the possible lost of speed from c41 films!
Because I wouldn't use films expired 20 years!!!
Notice : the lost of speed is tolerable - therefore you mentioned the issue point and shot - OK
(wonder about too - but now it is clear!) BUT the shifts are Problem NR 1/ the grain is
Problem NR 2...
The first shot is from a Roll 2000 - OK there are shifts but perhaps you feel fine (for me it is too much) but you also notice the grain? OK it is 110 film perhaps you WANT TO HAVE !

SO THIS FILM IS OK BUT IT IS FROM 2000?

Be sure it has seen couling condition for some time - people often let some films over month
(Yeats?) in ther cooler! For example bought 1998 imediately couled (beside their food)
Than this film got expired and wasn't wasted but came out of the couled (a wife became terrible
hating this stupit films in HER food couler ....we all can imagine).
I don't think your 2000 film was freezed (than it should have NO shiftings)

So what happened your film expiration 2006 it never was allowed to enter a couler!
It was allowed waiting for wasting onto??? Onto a box of car tools in a garage in Florida during
all heavy summers! Or a desert store in Nevada!

Normaly it HAVE to be the oposite = 2000 films total damaged (19 years) 2006 films less total damaged (2/3 damaged)!

with regards

PS: Be sure all films at room temperature storage are to waste after 10 Sears
(I personaly wonder about EBay Sellers offering 1978 films, 1983 films a.s.o)
PPS : E6 is simular to c41 , bw is a total different Situation but one should not mix the issue :
" bw 1978 looking good so c41 1982 is also OK perhaps?" NO IT CAN'T BE OK

trendland · Apr 10, 2019

TheGreatGasMaskMan said:
I now offer you this challenge, all ebay buys as well:
View attachment 221140
2000 expired superia 200, shot last spring
View attachment 221141
Kodacolor gold 200, age unknown, partially exposed when I got it. still receptive to light.
View attachment 221142
1997 expired walgreens 200 film. Also quite good.
View attachment 221143 View attachment 221144
Finally, another partially exposed kodacolor gold 200- bottom shot is what I'd like to avoid.

I actually quite enjoy color shifts, but would at least like my images properly exposed/compensatable in scanning.

Aha - OK that is hard to say (exposure compensation) because you can not know storage condition....! I would proceed the following way : Give 1 stop speed in addition + 1 EV
that would mean all 400 films to exposure with ISO 200 a.s.o.!
That is the same what I make with NEW films - it is OK!
Then (it might be enough up to this) count + 1/3 EV per 5 years of extention of expiration!
So you would compensate lost of speed of a c41 expiration 15years with one ISO step!
AND give em a further full ISO in addition because you can't now storage condition!
Notice : A all the years couled film isn't real expired! It hasn't the lost of a full EV (1 stop)
But a film with expiration 10 years of room temperature condition CAN have a lost of 2/3 EV
It is like bw film but just a little bit more! From adding a full EV what is OK for normal New c41
(within exposure tollerance) your expired film can't suffer!
But a full next +~ EV will compensate also bad storage condition within a 15 years expiration!
So you come up with ISO100 (for ISO 400 FILMS)!

with regards

PS : A color shifts belover

How old is too old for 110 film in a point and shoot?

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