Very soon after the start of my engineering career, I developed a strong aversion to "outsourcing" and deep appreciation for vertical integration. As usual, I was completely out of step with a direction the world was heading. This continued for decades until I retired. It's ongoing today.The price increases are caused by both inflation and costs that originate with the large number of suppliers that the film manufacturers depend on - and those costs are outside of the control of the manufacturers...
In other words Kodak get your ass over to Harman and ask how they are doing it because you are just a bunch of inept neverbees.The price increases are caused by both inflation and costs that originate with the large number of suppliers that the film manufacturers depend on - and those costs are outside of the control of the manufacturers.
If the suppliers that the film manufacturers depend on keep their products available at prices that are stable then, and only then, will the film manufacturers be able to control their wholesale, FOB the factory prices.
And even then there may still be rapid changes in price, because distribution costs are also outside the control of the manufacturers, and they may very well exceed the costs of manufacture.
Perhaps what I should have said is that "Takes a larger percentage of their income than they are prepared to pay for a product that has already been priced beyond what they think is a fair portion of their income" so they do what I was suggesting which is to buy less or stop buying completely.
pentaxuser
The price increases are caused by both inflation and costs that originate with the large number of suppliers that the film manufacturers depend on - and those costs are outside of the control of the manufacturers.
If the suppliers that the film manufacturers depend on keep their products available at prices that are stable then, and only then, will the film manufacturers be able to control their wholesale, FOB the factory prices.
And even then there may still be rapid changes in price, because distribution costs are also outside the control of the manufacturers, and they may very well exceed the costs of manufacture.
No need for quotes. It's a real explanation. Nothing weird about it.Really weird “explanation”...
One pays for what one gets. Foma's not even in the same quality league. Ilford, while playing on the same field, still does not match Kodak's quality. Choices are good....Ilford is still cheaper. Foma is still cheaper.
No need for quotes. It's a real explanation. Nothing weird about it.One pays for what one gets. Foma's not even in the same quality league. Ilford, while playing on the same field, still does not match Kodak's quality. Choices are good.
When stating facts, not "lies," can be considered "very dangerous," characterizing those facts as lies is dangerous behavior.LoL, please stop spreading pathetic lies. What you’re doing is very dangerous and the culprit of the internet where, sadly, any BS is disguised as the truth...
Dismissing reality with the excuse of being too busy is transparently nonsense....I am simply going to give 3 quick facts, because I don’t have a minute more to spare on this Bullsheet...
Outsourcing creates issues. See post #226. Neither Kodak nor Foma is immune. Backing paper has nothing to do with the quality of the film itself....foma never had paper backing issues while kodak struggled for years and couldn’t figure it out. Talk about rocket science problems...
I'm completely aware and don't care. Those film characteristics are of no interest to me. I greatly prefer other "looks" and panchromatic sensitivity. None of which has anything to do with manufacturing quality....foma 100’s look is the closest I have ever come to old tri-x. Foma 400 is indeed a direct competitor to sfx200 with its extended red sensitivity. You probably didn’t know that...
My 55 years of experience using film tells me you're attacking messengers out of an emotional attachment to certain films. Reality sucks, but it's real. Kodak film is most expensive and has the highest manufacturing quality in the world. It might not be worth the cost to some users. The "look" might not be what some users seek. Nonetheless, in terms of manufacturing quality, it's as good as film gets....My 30 years of experience using film, which includes extensively using foma, tells me you’re talking total nonsense.
Ilford is cheaper in some places, and more expensive in others. Their distribution system is very different than Kodak Alaris', and as such different factors affect it differently.Really weird “explanation”.
Ilford is still cheaper. Foma is still cheaper.
I don't know what is in your glass, for a very long time Ilford has been at least as good as Kodak, patriotic sentiments don't apply.No need for quotes. It's a real explanation. Nothing weird about it.One pays for what one gets. Foma's not even in the same quality league. Ilford, while playing on the same field, still does not match Kodak's quality. Choices are good.
Sounds like that lady from Ohio who with 5 reported virus cases figured it's time to tell people it is 100,000 just don't see it yet. Must have heard Merkel helping the panic with her 70% prediction too.Ilford is cheaper in some places, and more expensive in others. Their distribution system is very different than Kodak Alaris', and as such different factors affect it differently.
They are also a much smaller manufacturer, and have no colour products. But like Kodak, they are limited to a single production line. They benefit from certain flexibilities that Kodak doesn't enjoy, but suffer from some lack of efficiencies that Kodak does enjoy.
And their price increase schedule is different - most likely they are up "next".
The price that we see "on the shelf" is so radically greater than the manufacturing cost that it makes little sense to evaluate anything based on that cost alone.
Sure, I noticed that the other day when I pulled Tmax 100 - 35mm cupped so bad, without glass on top of it virtually unscannable. Unless Andy Warhol scanned it that is. So yeah, in the amount it can get out of flatness it is a prime product.When stating facts, not "lies," can be considered "very dangerous," characterizing those facts as lies is dangerous behavior.Dismissing reality with the excuse of being too busy is transparently nonsense.Outsourcing creates issues. See post #226. Neither Kodak nor Foma is immune. Backing paper has nothing to do with the quality of the film itself.I'm completely aware and don't care. Those film characteristics are of no interest to me. I greatly prefer other "looks" and panchromatic sensitivity. None of which has anything to do with manufacturing quality.My 55 years of experience using film tells me you're attacking messengers out of an emotional attachment to certain films. Reality sucks, but it's real. Kodak film is most expensive and has the highest manufacturing quality in the world. It might not be worth the cost to some users. The "look" might not be what some users seek. Nonetheless, in terms of manufacturing quality, it's as good as film gets.
Choices are good. Mendacity isn't.
Ditto.Fomapan 100 awesome film, and Ilford is equaly good as Kodak (HP5+ vs TriX, Delta vs Tmax and so on).
Fomapan 100 awesome film, and Ilford is equaly good as Kodak (HP5+ vs TriX, Delta vs Tmax and so on).
55 years of experience and totally forgetting to talk about kodak’s fiascos?
Saying that ilford is second rate?
Very hard to believe.
I don't know what is in your glass, for a very long time Ilford has been at least as good as Kodak, patriotic sentiments don't apply.
Searching the archives here and at the Large Format Forum would reveal numerous posts by me when Kodak was being grossly mismanaged, on the verge of and then in bankruptcy. At the time I emotionally said I'd support only Ilford from that point on. Reality has descended upon me since then. Outsourcing has induced some issues not related to the actual film, but Kodak remains at the top of film manufacturing quality. Fujifilm is equal to Kodak in quality, but offers practically nothing of interest to me. Acros II might change that; we shall see. Bottom line:Sure, I noticed that the other day when I pulled Tmax 100 - 35mm cupped so bad, without glass on top of it virtually unscannable. Unless Andy Warhol scanned it that is. So yeah, in the amount it can get out of flatness it is a prime product.
...you're attacking messengers out of an emotional attachment to certain films. Reality sucks, but it's real. Kodak film is most expensive and has the highest manufacturing quality in the world...
Matt, thank you for one of the rare intelligent comments concerning film prices. It really is quite simple despite the verbose conspiracy theories and complaints that the film companies specifically targeted certain complainers above:Ilford is cheaper in some places, and more expensive in others. Their distribution system is very different than Kodak Alaris', and as such different factors affect it differently.
They are also a much smaller manufacturer, and have no colour products. But like Kodak, they are limited to a single production line. They benefit from certain flexibilities that Kodak doesn't enjoy, but suffer from some lack of efficiencies that Kodak does enjoy.
And their price increase schedule is different - most likely they are up "next".
The price that we see "on the shelf" is so radically greater than the manufacturing cost that it makes little sense to evaluate anything based on that cost alone.
Criticism and being "hard to master" are utterly unrelated to manufacturing quality. TMX is not now and never has been "lousy." Like all films, one must understand its characteristics and use it appropriately. The ability to achieve various curve shapes by using different developers with TMX is a particular strength. Lower acutance than alternative emulsions is a weakness. None of that has anything to do with quality....Kodak was the intergalactic powerhouse but they had their lousy products as well. Tmax 100 was extremely criticized. Even today, it’s such a hardmfilm to master...
TMY was not a failure in any way. It didn't "have to be" redesigned, and TMY-2 exhibited small improvements in many areas, but retained the rising curve of TMY that caused users (who didn't possess sufficient printing skill and/or appropriate papers) to complain about the film....Tmax 400 was a major failure, it had to be redesigned completely. Maaaajor failure...
We're back to the bane of modern corporate culture, namely, outsourcing. Loss of control and reduction in number of suppliers leads to difficult, sometimes intractable problems. It's not easy and takes time to get things right. Only a top manufacturer like Kodak would forego sales for an extended period while investigating and rectifying a supplier issue....And the backing paper problem, what was so hard for them to get right? What a nightmare...
That is incorrect. Both 35mm and 4x5 TMX have been in continuous production and readily available at retail since 1986. Only 120 TMX was off the market while Kodak dealt with its backing paper issue....They didn’t manufacture tmax 100 for over a year because of that problem...
If one is a user of transparency films, perhaps Fujifilm manufactures something of interest. My taste runs to the colors (gamut and saturation) of Astia, not Velveeta. Discontinuing Astia wasn't a "right move" for me. In black and white, the base of 120 Acros was so thin and soft as to be almost impossible when loading on reels. Inversion processing of Acros always resulted in airbells, irrespective of prewash / no prewash, agitation regime or any other processing variation attempted. Only 4x5 Acros in a Jobo Expert drum was viable / free of white airbell circles on the negatives. Perhaps Acros II will be different. I'll reserve judgement until it's available in 4x5 and I try some....To be honest, Fuji is the best of the best. They are what kodak should have been. They made all the right moves, all the time. Even their backing paper is so perfect, so thin...
Yeah, great moves, eh, discontinuing Neopan 400 and 1600....Fuji is the best of the best. They are what kodak should have been. They made all the right moves, all the time...and their films: people still mourn their bw 1600 and 400 films...
In Foma's case, it's so small it probably can't afford to perform the R&D to create modern products. HARMAN might have more resources, but its bean counters are smart enough to pencil out the ROI on new product development. That's where its "understanding" lies....As for foma and Ilford, they understood that classics should never be touched...
HARMAN might have more resources, but its bean counters are smart enough to pencil out the ROI on new product development. That's where its "understanding" lies.
In terms of films' manufacturing quality, those statements are contradictory. It's got to be one way or the other. If you have preferences for a certain "look" that's only available from a product of lower physical quality, fine. But one cannot have it both ways.So this makes Kodak the best. I can’t disagree. But I can’t agree that foma is second rate, nor Ilford...But all I said, at the beginning, is that foma and Ilford were just as good as kodak...
"Perfection" is in the eye of the beholder. Your "perfection" is my "too grainy," "too [insert whatever image characteristic you desire here]." I neither drink beer or soda, wear sneakers, ride motorcycles nor drink whiskey, so cannot even apply the term "perfection" to any of the products you apparently admire.And then there is the management 101 common knowledge that one shouldn’t develop any further a perfect product from a mature market.
Budweiser, coca-cola, converse sneakers, harley-davidson, jack Daniels, are just a few examples.
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