How much editing is justified?

Don_ih · 2025-09-16T06:00:54-0400

That's true, but the way you described it makes the difference between a professional commercial photographer and a professional art photographer pretty insignificant. In both instances, if you fail to produce work that pleases the people who pay for it, you won't get paid. It's very rare to find someone who makes a living from uncommissioned art photography alone.

Most amateur photographers - as in almost all of them - will never sell a print.

nikos79 · 2025-09-16T06:15:19-0400

Don_ih said:
That's true, but the way you described it makes the difference between a professional commercial photographer and a professional art photographer pretty insignificant.

What is a "professional" art photographer? The one who is paid/commissioned to do gallery work and can support a living from that? Or the one who found other ways of income through photojournalism or selling his works (see HCB or Atget) while keeping his creative freedom?

For me the word "professional" is easy to define: you deliver a service to a client, meet requirements, and get paid.

But in art?
In my mind I am very skeptical when these two words come under the same sentence almost an oxymoron.

Don_ih · 2025-09-16T06:24:09-0400

Someone who makes a living selling prints that are considered artworks.

Not a photojournalist.

nikos79 · 2025-09-16T08:19:58-0400

OK then, but just to point out that this model really only became widespread in the 1970s, when photography entered the gallery system. Before then, even the so called "greats" or "classical" (Atget, Cartier-Bresson, Brassaï, Ronis, Kertész) weren’t living by selling prints.

Don_ih · 2025-09-16T08:29:15-0400

I'm not sure what your point is. It's still very rare that someone can get by selling art prints and not doing any commissioned work.

Anyway, none of this is very relevant to the topic. I just wanted to point out that professional photographers have to make money from their photography. Hobbyists or amateurs typically do not. So "professional photographer" has at least that much significance as a label.

runswithsizzers · 2025-09-16T08:51:15-0400

Don_ih said:
Anyway, none of this is very relevant to the topic. I just wanted to point out that professional photographers have to make money from their photography. Hobbyists or amateurs typically do not. So "professional photographer" has at least that much significance as a label.

That was the distinction I was trying to make: If you depend on photography to pay your bills, then when you ask yourself, "How much editing is justified?" -- one of the factors that goes into that thought process is, "How much editing do my potential buyers want?" (And, also maybe, "How much time can I afford to spend on each one?")

nikos79 · 2025-09-16T09:57:59-0400

Don_ih said:
I'm not sure what your point is. It's still very rare that someone can get by selling art prints and not doing any commissioned work.

Anyway, none of this is very relevant to the topic. I just wanted to point out that professional photographers have to make money from their photography. Hobbyists or amateurs typically do not. So "professional photographer" has at least that much significance as a label.

yes to that we agree

nikos79 · 2025-09-16T09:58:23-0400

runswithsizzers said:
That was the distinction I was trying to make: If you depend on photography to pay your bills, then when you ask yourself, "How much editing is justified?" -- one of the factors that goes into that thought process is, "How much editing do my potential buyers want?" (And, also maybe, "How much time can I afford to spend on each one?")

great point

Don_ih · 2025-09-16T10:15:14-0400

In the world of graphic design, photos are raw materials to be chopped up, reorganized, blended together, made into soup - whatever you want to do. They are totally subservient to the end product.

wiltw · 2025-09-16T10:44:11-0400

'Necessary' editing = that which is necessary to achieve the 'desired end result'

What is 'desired' is the variable, changing for a specific purpose.

MattKing · 2025-09-16T12:14:53-0400

FWIW, from my perspective, "professional" actually only applies to someone who meets certain pre-defined standards administered by a regulatory body that has the power to admit or exclude practitioners from their certification system, and is involved in various activities designed to protect and enhance its membership's contributions to the craft.
I've always been uncomfortable with that label when applied to people whose vocation is photography.
But the use of "'professional' photographer" is widespread, so I live with it.
In a roundabout way, that leads me back to my concern with this thread.
Professionally regulated bodies have regulatory structures that help define and determine what actions are "justified". Outside of certain specialties like reportage, which has very good reasons to impose rules, "justified" doesn't sit well.
"Advisable" or "What one is comfortable with" seems more appropriate.
"Justified" seems better as a song:

nikos79 · 2025-09-16T12:33:24-0400

Has anyone ever thought what a "professional" poet means?

koraks · 2025-09-16T12:39:55-0400

nikos79 said:
Has anyone ever thought what a "professional" poet means?

I started thinking about it once, but I got very hungry very quickly, so I gave up and went to have lunch.

gary mulder · 2025-09-16T12:45:18-0400

My definition of a professional is that if the tax collector has the opinion that you have to pay income tax for what you get for the result of your hobby then you probably are a professional. I personally don’t like to be a professional.

Vaughn · 2025-09-16T13:04:10-0400

Don_ih said:
That's true, but the way you described it makes the difference between a professional commercial photographer and a professional art photographer pretty insignificant. In both instances, if you fail to produce work that pleases the people who pay for it, you won't get paid. It's very rare to find someone who makes a living from uncommissioned art photography alone.

Most amateur photographers - as in almost all of them - will never sell a print.

The differences between the goals of a professional commercial art photographer, a professional (fine) art photographer, and an amateur art photographers are very significant. But they all approach photography as artists, since (IMO) people who practice the art of photography are artists.

Hobbiests seem to be those who are more interested in the craft of photography, with personal goals of improving their craft.

But it is not a case of being one or the other, but a blending of needs and desires. The hobbiest bumps up against the seduction of art, the artist refines craft to move the art forward.

I place less importance on sales as a guide for success than I do getting work out to be seen. But even then, there are artists who do not need to show their work...private artists.

Don_ih · 2025-09-16T13:32:25-0400

The reality, of course, is a continuum, but we're talking about broad generalizations, here. That's what a label is. There are always particular characteristics that that would work to exclude the application of a label.

@MattKing a professional photographer can take your passport photo.

Vaughn · 2025-09-16T14:27:15-0400

Don_ih said:
The reality, of course, is a continuum, but we're talking about broad generalizations, here. That's what a label is. There are always particular characteristics that that would work to exclude the application of a label.

@MattKing a professional photographer can take your passport photo.

Right on! There's a good reason AA always included in his commercial work contracts provisions to make his own images (copyright ownership, etc) while on assignments.

Brendan Quirk · 2025-09-16T17:31:09-0400

A.D.Coleman defined professional something along the lines of someone who prepared his work for the public in order to communicate. Those who worked "for themselves only", although maybe highly skilled and artistic, were amateur, not professional. For him amateur was not a slur, rather the amateur has more freedom, for the need to communicate requires more consideration.

Those who did the above, but did not succeed in reaching the public, could perhaps be described as unsuccessful professionals.

Don_ih · 2025-09-16T19:08:22-0400

That's swell, but not as meaningful as the idea that a professional needs to make money from photography. And artists can be seen as preparing their work for the public in order to communicate - even if they don't make any money from their art (as most artists do not make any money at all). And most professionals simply perform a task and get paid and don't especially care about the public.

Why don't we drop the term and use "working photographer" instead?

@BrianShaw -- I regret saying any label was meaningful.

BrianShaw · 2025-09-16T19:11:07-0400

No problem, Don. That tangental aside was/is actually quite interesting.

awty · 2025-09-16T19:23:28-0400

slackercrurster said:
Unless you are a news photog...there are no post processing police around. Do as you like, bub.

I shot it when I was 19 or 20 with a beat up Hasselblad SWC I bought from an Art Center College student for $400 or $500….I can’t remember. The window light was the only light source. Back in the 70’s you could pick up a well used SWC for next to nothing.

On the left is an Agfa Brovira vintage 1970’s silver gelatin print. On the right is a Hahnemühle Baryta inkjet print right. It is a good example of what 2-1/2 hours of Lightroom can do for a photograph.

The time consuming work with post processing is making the work prints. What looks good on the monitor is not what always comes out on the printer. Lots of fine tuning involved. This version of The Sunlit Slipper is #16. Some of my print versions end up in the 30’s or more.

The Sunlit Slipper – Los Angeles 1973

Hasselblad SWC + 2-1/2 hours of Lightroom

Lovely picture, excellent work.

How much editing is justified?

Heavy editing (analog or digital) on an image is...

...required to bring out the hidden diamond; not doing it demonstrates inexcusable incompetence

...OK if you think it helps

...not a great idea; show some restraint

...an abomination and you should be hanged, drawn and quartered for even suggesting it

Don_ih

nikos79

Don_ih

nikos79

Don_ih

runswithsizzers

nikos79

nikos79

Don_ih

wiltw

MattKing

Moderator

nikos79

koraks

Moderator

gary mulder

Vaughn

Don_ih

Vaughn

Brendan Quirk

Don_ih

BrianShaw

awty

How much editing is justified?

Heavy editing (analog or digital) on an image is...

...required to bring out the hidden diamond; not doing it demonstrates inexcusable incompetence

...OK if you think it helps

...not a great idea; show some restraint

...an abomination and you should be hanged, drawn and quartered for even suggesting it

Moderator

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency