How many films until the developer is exhausted?

giganova · Aug 31, 2015

I develop all my FP4 and HP5 in Ilfotec DD-X, 2 rolls at a time in a Jobo 1520 tank, then I develop another 2 rolls of film in the SAME developer, adjusting the development time accordingly (+15%). That gives me 4 rolls of film for 500ml 1:4 diluted Ilfotec DD-X.

How far can I push that method and how many films could I develop until the developer is exhausted and I would see adverse effects?

Thanks!

Xmas · Aug 31, 2015

See

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2011427124733149.pdf

Sirius Glass · Aug 31, 2015

As long as I have stock solution to replenish the XTOL the developer will continue to be good. See the manufacturer's instructions and follow them.

Welcome to APUG

pentaxuser · Aug 31, 2015

If you are developing 4 rolls in the same 500ml of DDX then my reading of the link provided by Xmas is that you are already breaking Ilford's rule which is to either dump after one use or pour the used-once developer back into the whole of the working solution before using it again and then following Ilford's time increase. However doing the latter only seems to give you 10 more films than the use once and dump method

Having said all that you have the evidence of your own eyes that using 500mls twice for 4 rolls works. That's 8 rolls for 500mls and 80 rolls for 1L of DDX at 1+4 which is twice what Ilford says you should aim for.

I think I have heard of DDX being used at 1+9 but then it is used only once which may or may not be the same or similar to what you are doing by using 1+4 twice.

There are no official times for 1+9 and none I could find in the Massive Development Chart either but maybe others will add this information. Do a search here and see what information this gives you

I would use DDX at 1+4 and only use it once then dump but I may being too conservative. The effort to get decent negs which may not be easily repeatable may be too much to risk for a small saving. It would be for me

pentaxuser

MattKing · Aug 31, 2015

If you are exceeding Ilford's capacity recommendations you run the risk of inconsistent results.

Some films will exhaust developer more than others. It varies with factors like how dense the negatives are - snow scenes use up more developer than jazz clubs.

Xmas · Aug 31, 2015

You need to review all of Ilford's comments for reuse and working solution life.

Eg when I use Microphen stock I filter the used liquid as I pour it back into the stock bottle. I've had chips of film stuck to emulsion...

Jim Noel · Aug 31, 2015

Why waste the time and energy and take a chance on poor negatives when developer is relatively inexpensive?

giganova · Aug 31, 2015

According to Ilford's tech info, I'm still on the safe side:

They say you can develop up to 10 films in 1 liter of DD-X at 1:4 dilution. My Jobo tank has 500 ml, that would give up to 5 films and I'm developing 2 batches with 2 films each = 4 films total. I've done this for hundreds of films already and are getting consistent results. My question was whether I can push that a bit further and develop 6 films (3 batches) and was wondering if someone has done that.

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Xmas · Aug 31, 2015

Jim Noel said:
Why waste the time and energy and take a chance on poor negatives when developer is relatively inexpensive?

The OP asked a question and post #3 answered it...

Xmas · Aug 31, 2015

giganova said:
According to Ilford's tech info, I'm still on the safe side:

They say you can develop up to 10 films in 1 liter of DD-X at 1:4 dilution. My Jobo tank has 500 ml, that would give up to 5 films and I'm developing 2 batches with 2 films each = 4 films total. I've done this for hundreds of films already and are getting consistent results. My question was whether I can push that a bit further and develop 6 films (3 batches) and was wondering if someone has done that.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Please try reading the link in post #2 or post #3 or both.
As I read what you say you are doing you are delinquent?
Have you made up a litre of 1:4 or a larger amount that you discard after 24 hours?

pentaxuser · Aug 31, 2015

For the sake of those of us who like DDX but like to save money, try pushing your method further and develop 6 films to see what happens. That gives you 6 films from 500ml diluted at 1+4 so 10 x 6 films from 5L of working stock I think that you think it can be done and maybe you are right. There may be only one way to find out.

I have since re-read Ilford's instructions and it would appear that provided you re-use the 500mls immediately on the second set of 2 films which I think you do, it will develop 40 films which is what you currently do with success. However if you try for 6 films then you will be trying for a 50% increase in successful film development which is quite a stretch.I'd try it on a set of films where you lose nothing important.

Just bear in mind that there is little point in Ilford advising you to follow its instructions if there is no reason why you cannot use the same solution of DDX for 6 films without any real chance of exhausting it with dire consequences

The cynical might say that it is in Ilford's interest to get us to use more DDX than we need to but I believe it is even more dangerous for Ilford to suggest that DDX goes even further if it does not, without the danger of ruining film. I believe that Ilford believes that that is more dangerous as well

If I like DDX a lot then I'll put up with it only developing 40 films and go on using it even if I have a slight suspicion that it might stretch to say 45, 50 or even 60 films. However if Ilford says it can develop 60 films without any adverse consequences I may cease to use DDX and worse all other Ilford products on the first occasion that it fails to live up to Ilford's claim which is much worse for Ilford than it persuading me to dump each batch of developer before I need to.

pentaxuser

giganova · Aug 31, 2015

I'll give it a try, pentaxuser, and will report back!

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 1, 2015

I'm curious about film developer exhaustion. Is it caused by bromide build up?

Xmas · Sep 1, 2015

Ilfords weasel words are at post #2.

Halide build up, etc.,...

pentaxuser · Sep 1, 2015

giganova said:
I'll give it a try, pentaxuser, and will report back!

Thanks. I look forward to hearing what you found. Somebody has to push the boundaries if we are ever to learn the extent of any developer's ability

pentaxuser

OptiKen · Sep 1, 2015

The real question is how many films until the model is exhausted

RalphLambrecht · Sep 1, 2015

giganova said:
I develop all my FP4 and HP5 in Ilfotec DD-X, 2 rolls at a time in a Jobo 1520 tank, then I develop another 2 rolls of film in the SAME developer, adjusting the development time accordingly (+15%). That gives me 4 rolls of film for 500ml 1:4 diluted Ilfotec DD-X.

How far can I push that method and how many films could I develop until the developer is exhausted and I would see adverse effects?

Thanks!

for most consistent results,I use developer and fixer only once but if your method works fpr you

RalphLambrecht · Sep 1, 2015

pentaxuser said:
For the sake of those of us who like DDX but like to save money, try pushing your method further and develop 6 films to see what happens. That gives you 6 films from 500ml diluted at 1+4 so 10 x 6 films from 5L of working stock I think that you think it can be done and maybe you are right. There may be only one way to find out.

I have since re-read Ilford's instructions and it would appear that provided you re-use the 500mls immediately on the second set of 2 films which I think you do, it will develop 40 films which is what you currently do with success. However if you try for 6 films then you will be trying for a 50% increase in successful film development which is quite a stretch.I'd try it on a set of films where you lose nothing important.

Just bear in mind that there is little point in Ilford advising you to follow its instructions if there is no reason why you cannot use the same solution of DDX for 6 films without any real chance of exhausting it with dire consequences

The cynical might say that it is in Ilford's interest to get us to use more DDX than we need to but I believe it is even more dangerous for Ilford to suggest that DDX goes even further if it does not, without the danger of ruining film. I believe that Ilford believes that that is more dangerous as well

If I like DDX a lot then I'll put up with it only developing 40 films and go on using it even if I have a slight suspicion that it might stretch to say 45, 50 or even 60 films. However if Ilford says it can develop 60 films without any adverse consequences I may cease to use DDX and worse all other Ilford products on the first occasion that it fails to live up to Ilford's claim which is much worse for Ilford than it persuading me to dump each batch of developer before I need to.

pentaxuser

I believe that is correct.It is Ilford's interest for their customers to succeed and all their technical info seems to be written with that in mind as far as I can tell.

Xmas · Sep 1, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
I believe that is correct.It is Ilford's interest for their customers to succeed and all their technical info seems to be written with that in mind as far as I can tell.

Ilfords (and other suppliers) information will have margin eg to allow for adverse temperature conditions, etc. but the OPs usage seems to be delinquent on several parameters and may not be done on test targets so...

I do use stock rather than replenish but I do filter when returning to stock bottle, per Ilfords instructions.

So I'd put this down to alchemy, which took four centuries or so and a world class chemist, but did not get gold.

Gerald C Koch · Sep 2, 2015

I am always bewildered when people refuse to accept the manufacturers recommendations. Ilford has spent time and effort using equipment beyond what anyone on APUG could muster to determine the parameters of their developers. Yet there are always some that think they know better.

Sirius Glass · Sep 2, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I am always bewildered when people refuse to accept the manufacturers recommendations. Ilford has spent time and effort using equipment beyond what anyone on APUG could muster to determine the parameters of their developers. Yet there are always some that think they know better.

They are the same ones who tell us that Ilford, Kodak and Fuji engineers do not know what they are doing. Then they will post endless blogs that the Ilford, Kodak and Fuji products will not work for them as the plead for PE to bail them out of their self inflicted problems. They will tell everyone to mix a little of this developer with a little of that developer will work wonders based on what they had that day for breakfast!

pentaxuser · Sep 2, 2015

Gerald C Koch said:
I am always bewildered when people refuse to accept the manufacturers recommendations. Ilford has spent time and effort using equipment beyond what anyone on APUG could muster to determine the parameters of their developers. Yet there are always some that think they know better.

Maybe, Gerald but we won't know and more importantly the OP won't know until he tries. Nobody it appears has been able to show the OP incontrovertible evidence or any evidence of failure when an attempt is made to develop 6 films in the same 500ml of DDX.

I imagine Ilford has tested DDX to "destruction" so may know the answer. I wonder if testing how many films can be developed as per what the OP wants to do was part of those tests?

pentaxuser

MattKing · Sep 2, 2015

If the OP is going to try this, he/she should remember to record in detail descriptions of the scenes photographed and the negatives obtained. Developer capacity will be affected by the nature of the scenes photographed: high key or snow scenes that result in dense negatives will exhaust developer more than low key, dark scenes that result in thin negatives.

Sirius Glass · Sep 2, 2015

Michael R 1974 said:
The results will still be anecdotal at best, so others are best advised to stick with the manufacturer's capacity guidelines. Developer exhaustion/deterioration is gradual and can have gradual impacts on everything from uniformity to emulsion speed to contrast to image structure.

Life is better when one RFM.

removed account4 · Sep 2, 2015

OP,
if you mix a giant tub of sumatranol 130
you will not have to replenish or make new developer for maybe 5 months.
you can use it for both your films as well as your prints and get and 200 films ( mix of color, black and white rolls and sheets
(4x5 sheets, 35mm, 110 and 120 rolls ) and 200 prints (various postiive + negatives, 4x5-11x14)

i'd stick to ilford's chemistry and their recommendations, but if you decide you need the java, let me know.

How many films until the developer is exhausted?

giganova

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How many films until the developer is exhausted?

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