How many companies have made E-6 film?

I believe that only Fuji and Kodak still make color transparency film for process in Kodak E-6 process.

But, over the years there have been other brands, such as:

Agfa
Konica
Mitsubishi

Any others? And...as an additional question, did anyone who made E-6 compatible films have to have a license from Eastman Kodak?

You have entirely to much time on your hands!

I have not seen this many speculative questions since I was in photo school over 30 years ago!

Dave

Dave Parker said:

You have entirely to much time on your hands!

I have not seen this many speculative questions since I was in photo school over 30 years ago!

Dave

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I agree, at the moment I have "too much" time on my hands, however, I am new to this forum, and it seems to be comprised of some very learned, and senior industry professionals, as well as many pros and advanced amateurs and these are questions I have been curious about for many years...Don't worry, tomorrow I will be out shooting.

PHOTOTONE said:

.Don't worry, tomorrow I will be out shooting.

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Good, because making pictures is what it is all about!

Have a great one, I want to see pictures!

Dave

AFAIK, the only license needed for E6 was if they utilized a patented portion of Kodak technology either in the film or in their own version of the process chemistry. This is one reason why these companies were able to sell films at a lower cost than EK. They didn't have the overhead costs needed for process development.

Kodak did all of the work for them and they went along on the ride making compatible films until the patents expired and then marketed their own versions of E6. Same is true for C41 and RA. In some cases they cross licensed some technology with Kodak.

Kodak patented many color processes and those other companies made products compatible with them that could have been sold and processed with no patent conflict. I have sample boxes of some of these products designed for the now defunct Kodak processes or expired patents.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

AFAIK, the only license needed for E6 was if they utilized a patented portion of Kodak technology either in the film or in their own version of the process chemistry. This is one reason why these companies were able to sell films at a lower cost than EK. They didn't have the overhead costs needed for process development.

PE

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AFAIK, all dye-coupler color film technology came from the "spoils of war" sharing of information after WW II from the Agfa company in Germany?
So, Kodak improved this basic concept enough to garner many patents over the years, I would guess, but the underlying dye-coupler concepts were first brought to practical product stage by Agfa just before, or during WW II.

Please note, I am referring to what eventually became E-6 and C-41 type films, not Kodachrome, which Kodak improved and brought to market on its own.

This is not correct. Kodak had dye coupler technology in another form called Kodacolor couplers (used now for E6 and C41 type films) in the 40s, and it had Kodachrome film at about the same time.

So, both were paralell efforts and Kodak's method won. This was due to the ability to coat multiple layers at the same time instead of using several passes through the coating machine which was impossible using Agfa's method. So, your 'history' lacks a great deal of information there.

Both Agfa and Kodak developed offshoots of the same technology at the same time. Dye coupling was known in the 1890s IIRC, developed in Germany but never reduced to practice in film until about the 40s by both companies.

The only piece of technology that Kodak learned from the 'spoils of war' was gold sensitization which gained a stop in speed with no increase in grain. Agfa, on the other hand, began using Kodak couplers in the 70s to speed production, reduce defects and improve dye stability. Konica and Fuji switched at about the same time.

PE

I might add that color masking was taken by Fuji, Konica and Agfa from Kodak patents.

PE

3M used to make transparency film also.

So you probably want to rephrase your question as: Which companies produced incorporated dye-couplers reversal colour films. That excludes films like Kodachrome and Autochrome too...

mhv said:

So you probably want to rephrase your question as: Which companies produced incorporated dye-couplers reversal colour films. That excludes films like Kodachrome and Autochrome too...

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Yes, of course that is more accurate. But there were many before the industry standardized on E-6 processing. Ansco with Anscochrome, Agfa with original Agfachrome, and others. My main "thrust" with the question was to ascertain who actually made (coated) emulsions compatible with Kodaks E-6 chemistry? Up until the E-6 process, there were no "compatible" incorporated dye-coupler reversal films from manufacurers other than Kodak. AFAIK, no manufacturer outside of Eastman Kodak made films compatible with E2, E3 or E4. E-6 is the point at which everyone started becoming "compatible" same with C-41 for negative. Prior to this, whoever made color negative film, also had proprietary processing for said film, and it couldn't be run in the current Eastman Kodak process of the period. Since in the USA until the last 25 years or so, Eastman Kodak was the only "game in town" for readily available color film AND processing chemistry that any photograper could purchase and use in his own darkroom. it is understandable that to gain any market share here, any NEW product would have to be compatible with the chemistry the processing labs already were using. I remember back in the 1960's, with original Agfachrome, you bought the film and it included processing, and it was sent to an AGFA owned lab in the USA for processing in their own process, not compatible with Eastman chemistry. That was the only way for that film at that time. Of course, this was not considered a hindrance with Kodachrome (a film outside the scope of this question), but never-the-less, to gain acceptance in the broadest possible sense, any transparency film sold in the USA really needed to be compatible with E-6 processing.

All of the other processes were designed to be compatible in one way or another with Agfa Fischer couplers. Fuji, Konica, Agfa and Ferrania were "Allies" with all that means on Dec 7th, 1940. (8th, as my Japanese friends point out to me).

In any event, these processes were very similar and the films designed around them by the Axis nations suffered from severe problems in coating, dye stability and other major defects which were solved by the Kodak E1, E2 etc and the C22 and C41 processes. That is why everyone jumped aboard.

If Kodak had had an inferior process, it would not have worked either, but it was not inferior from all of these aspects.

The encapsulated coupler reduced coating defects, allowed multiple layer coating, and improved dye stability. These four improvements alone allowed Kodak to capture the market. Your view is rather simplistic in that sense.

BTW, Kodak had a Ciba/Ilfochrome dye bleach product ready for introduction. The scheduled release date was Monday, Dec 8th, 1940. It was cancelled for obvious reasons and was never resurrected.

PE

Ron, is it accurate to say that between the moment at which Agfa introduced integrated color couplers films (?1936 Agfacolor) and the introduction of E-6 and C-41 processes, all color processes (negs+pos) were proprietary and/or incompatible with each other, even though they relied on the same broad technological principles?

This is a wonderful treasure trove of historic information, I just love it.

mhv said:

Ron, is it accurate to say that between the moment at which Agfa introduced integrated color couplers films (?1936 Agfacolor) and the introduction of E-6 and C-41 processes, all color processes (negs+pos) were proprietary and/or incompatible with each other, even though they relied on the same broad technological principles?

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Yes. But I would say C22 and E1 or before the consent decree. This happened earlier than most imagine. That is why much of the commentary here is based on revelations after the war. It really took place during or before the war and was independant.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Yes. But I would say C22 and E1 or before the consent decree. This happened earlier than most imagine. That is why much of the commentary here is based on revelations after the war. It really took place during or before the war and was independant.

PE

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Please explain the "consent decree" what it was and how it affected development of color materials.

Dave Parker said:

Good, because making pictures is what it is all about!

Have a great one, I want to see pictures!

Dave

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I do have an online gallery, just not here yet. Here is the link to my galleries, and my latest project, the Bridges of Arkansas.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?ppuser=1281&cat=500

PHOTOTONE said:

I do have an online gallery, just not here yet. Here is the link to my galleries, and my latest project, the Bridges of Arkansas.

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?ppuser=1281&cat=500

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Nice work, you should become a subscriber so you can share some of your work over here, I think many would enjoy it, thanks for sharing.

Dave

Speaking of which, Dave, I'd be curious to see your work here too!

mhv said:

Speaking of which, Dave, I'd be curious to see your work here too!

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Michel,

I don't often post pictures anywhere anymore, I have very little left in the way of B&W and really very few of my color transparancy scanned as I don't often have the time to sit down and work on them with the glass business, I have not shot a film picture since August which was when I did my last wedding for the year, The only reason I can monitor the forum as much as I do is because my laptop is right next to my work area for doing glass screens..

Just not enough hours in the day anymore, but I am hoping to change that after the first of the year, with some restructuring efforts and then many I will have some time to upload some images.

Dave

First let me correct something.

There is a comment above about Agfa introducing color couplers. They did not. They introduced plain couplers which formed colors. Kodak introduced color couplers which formed a mix of 2 color images and masked or corrected color giving better color purity.

Before E6 and C41, all processes were totally proprietary and the films were incompatible from each manufacturer. It was mainly due to the Fischer vs Kodacolor coupler differences, but also a design decision to use CD1, CD2, CD3 etc etc etc.

Now, up until the Concent Decree, film was sold with processing included. You had to return it to the manufacturer or one of its subsidiaries for processing. US courts ruled that was illegal and Kodak was forced for the first time to sell processing chemistry for outside use.

This resulted in a complete redesign of films and processes and the sale for the first time of Type "C" and Type "R" paper in the US. The process redesign was so that non-technical type people could run it safely and under control without special equipment.

For example, one process used CD1, which causes allergies and is not very stable in solution (it forms a tarry oil on the developer solution) and the dyes of that era were not stable enough, so they changed to CD3 which is much less toxic and more soluable.

Another example is that film and paper used a sulfuric acid / quinone bleach bath which was quite corrosive so Kodak changed to ferricyanide which was much less toxic and corrosive.

Processes of that era (50s - early 60s) were at 68 deg F - 76 deg F and took an hour or more. The products were very soft.

As time progressed, the processes heated up and processing time was reduced.

But, Agfa, Gevaert, Konishiroku and Fuji still produced films that were incompatible with each other and these companies still used Fischer couplers due to the Kodak patents on their couplers and their multilayer coating processes. This gave them a huge advantage in coating speed and quality. Finally the patents either expired or the technology was licensed at about the time E6 and C41 and EP3 came on the market in the late 60s - late 70s.

Several of the companies made film compatible with Kodachrome though, but stopped in the 80s. At that time, Fujichrome was a Kodachrome type film but became an E6 type film. In about 1990, Fujichrome film suddenly became incompatible with E6 and almost ruined the company due to this serious fault. No one really knows what happened, but there were several articles in the trade press in the 90s. Now, this is carefully controlled by all companies.

However, Fuji recently announced a new process for the CA papers which require a new developer and blix. These new papers contain Tellurium sensitized emulsions and are, according to Fuji, incompatible with Kodak or Fuji RA developers and blixes.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Kodak did all of the work for them and they went along on the ride making compatible films until the patents expired and then marketed their own versions of E6. Same is true for C41 and RA. In some cases they cross licensed some technology with Kodak.

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Owning a patent is a tricky thing. If you try for exclusive use and refuse to allow others to use the technology you can wind up like Sony with their Betamax system.

PE, thanks for posting this.

I'm not a wet darkroom person by any means, but I find this (and other threads) thread very interesting and appreciate you posting the details. Thanks.

PE, thanks for the fascinating precisions, but what is the difference between "plain couplers which formed colors" and "color couplers" ?

mhv said:

PE, thanks for the fascinating precisions, but what is the difference between "plain couplers which formed colors" and "color couplers" ?

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A plain cyan coupler is colorless and forms a cyan dye. This cyan dye has some unwanted yellowish color rendering the color reproduction imperfect.

A colored cyan coupler is yellowish and forms a positive yellow image and a negative cyan image in which the cyan image (red record) is perfectly recorded while the positive yellow image cancels the imperfect yellow color out.

In the uncorrected image you get a greenish cyan, but in the corrected image you get a near perfect cyan image with a slight yellow dmin. This is where the color comes from in all present day color negatives. Both the cyan and magenta couplers are colored. The cyan is actually reddish (to cancel all imperfections) and the magenta is yellow. As a result, the dmin of a negative is actually orange.

This was invented by Hanson and Vittum in the 40s. Wesley T. Hanson went on to become VP of Kodak and Director of Research, and Paul W. Vittum was Director of the Color Photography division when he hired me.

They were both great people and I'm very happy I was able to know them.

PE