How Long will my toner keep?

BWGirl · Mar 29, 2005

Hey All!
I'm about to embark on my first attempt at toning. I am going to start with sepia toner. I have several envelopes of the Kodak stuff.

Here's the question...once I mix the contents of each of the envelopes (bleach & toner), can I use it more than once?

Can I use each then put them into a dark bottle & use them again?

Thanks!

Mongo · Mar 30, 2005

Yes, you can re-use them. I have no idea how long they'll keep...the stuff's so cheap that I just mix a new batch every month or two.

The bigger issue is the number of prints you put through them. The bleach will wear out after a while. I, unfortunately, have no metrics for this...If I'm toning a bunch of prints I just wait until the prints are taking longer than I like to bleach and then mix up a new batch. I'd guess the number of 8x10 prints is in the "dozens" range, but can't be any more accurate than that.

Dean Williams · Mar 30, 2005

Time doesn't seem to be as much a factor as usage for either sepia or selenium. When it takes too long to work for you, it's time for new. The amount you bleach down with the sepia is a consideration. If you bleach to nearly clear paper before you redevelop it will do fewer prints. It depends on what you like. For most prints I want the bleach to do the complete job, and I'd guess around 15-20 prints is what I get for the quart size.
The chems will last for months, once mixed. I treat them the same as developer. No air, stored in the dark.

Mateo · Mar 30, 2005

Just in case no one has warned you: that rotten egg smell that you'll soon know first hand, is not good for your unexposed paper. If you can smell it where your paper is, your paper will be fogged.

blackmelas · Mar 30, 2005

Hi Jeanette,
I'm going to put an unsolicited word in for Tetenal Triponaltoner. I tried Kodak sepia a couple times before I tried TT but now I'm not sure if I'll ever go back. Its more expensive (12 euro a box in Athens) but no rotten egg smell. TT comes with liquid concentrate bleach, a toner powder, and a liquid that regulates the intensity of the toner. The tone moves from yellow to brown to dark brown as you add more regulator. I've read that you can do the same with Kodak if you vary the concentration of the toner. Besides preferring the color shift over Kodak, the best thing was that the TT left my paper borders bright white and worked only on the silver image, whereas the Kodak shifted the paper base to yellowish ivory or darker on Ilford WTFB glossy and matte. The only problem I found with TT is that if you use the bleach at the strength (1+3) recommended by Tetenal, it can be too strong. It knocked out the highlights of a print or two before I decided to dilute the working solution. Does anyone have the same experience with Kodak?
James

George Papantoniou · Mar 30, 2005

What James is talking about is actually a Thiocarbamide (Thiourea) toner formula. There is no bad smell and the toxicity of the toning bath is much lower than with sepia. You can find several recipes to make it yourself on the net...
You should be very careful with the toning bath of sepia toner because there is a possibility that hudrogen sulfide, a poisonous gas can be released from it, especially if it is contaminated with acid... In the book by Susan Shaw and Monona Rossol (Overexposure) that all of us should have is mentioned "Do not use Sulfide toners unless there is adequate local exhaust ventilation"...

Sino · Mar 30, 2005

I'm currently using Colorvir's Sepia toner, a two-bath one -- bleach and tone. I've gone mad by that awful smell that the tone part has! Man oh man, the whole darkroom smells like twenty of cows came along and used it as their toilet. Apart from that, i've found out it can last pretty long -- i store it in used water bottles which i fill, then stretch until there's no air inside before i place the cap. There's no sight of it wearing out, although i've toned about 15 20x25cm prints until now, with very good results. Asking the seller, it's supposed to be lasting for 12-15 8x10 inch prints and doesn't fade with time. It's supposed to be working perfectly if you store it the same way as the developer...

-Sino.

jim appleyard · Mar 30, 2005

I mix my own stuff according to "The Darkroom Cookbook". It's fun to be an Evil Scientist!

Bob F. · Mar 30, 2005

Yup - use a Thiocarbamide based toner - the Kodak stuff gives off Hydrogen Sulphide gas (i.e. the stuff used for stink bombs) and will fog any photographic emulsion. The chemical reaction is the same so it is just as archival and, as a bonus, you can alter the depth/warmth of the colour by adjusting the amount of "activator" (Sodium Hydroxide). If you want to try the Kodak one, do it in the garden, away from the house....

I would also suggest obtaining Tim Rudman's "The Master Photographer's Toning Book" which is something of a bible on the subject with stacks of great examples for inspiration and covers just about every toner and method of working under the sun... One of the best photographic buys around...

Have fun, Bob.

Neal · Mar 30, 2005

Dear Jeanette,

Lots of good advice above but be careful toning. Most of these chemicals are much less friendly than the basic b&w ones. Follow the instructions included with any of these products. I tone in my garage. Plenty of ventilation and spills can be contained and cleaned. I also use gloves and plastic tongs.

As for your original question, some toners (Selenium in particular) last a very long time while others have a more limited shelf life once mixed. If

Neal Wydra

photomc · Mar 30, 2005

As Mateo stated above, the smell is strong and will fog paper and film, I think. What I do is take a tray of Sodium Sulfite, a tray of water and a tray to mix the toner in, keeps the smell down - but should mention that I am using Agfa Viradon for toning. If you haven't picked up Rudman's toning book, I would do that before I did anything..it is one of the best on the subject I have found. Our own Ann is also a good source of information on toning and the different toners..have fun..

BWGirl · Mar 30, 2005

Thanks for all the info! I got this at a garage/tag sale It was $2 for a box with 12 unopened packets in it. I can NEVER pass up a bargain.

I remember the smell from my B&W class... the instructor finally realized he did not have to do the toning in the darkrrom & moved it out into the open classroom... thank heavens!

I plan on doing my toning out on the porch. It's enclosed, and has 2 walls of windows & a ceiling fan. That's one of the reasons I've been waiting to do this until it got a wee bit warmer around here.

I will look for some of the other toner when I see how my "2 buck yuck" does! As for mixing my own... well... let's just say that after the school year finished the year I had Chemistry... the instructor retired. I'm not sure if it was the explosion or the acid spill...

panchromatic · Mar 30, 2005

I read on B&H's website that their is a sepia II warm toner, which is described as

"Kodak Sepia Toner II is a two-solution bleach and redeveloper-type toner, which Produces noticeably warmer brown tones on most black-and-white papers than Kodak Professional Sepia Toner.

Toner II differs from toner one primarily in that the Toner II formula is an odorless one."

Meaning its warmer in tone and doesn't stink... anyone have experience with it?

ann · Mar 30, 2005

also note that this new version has recommendations for toning under safelight.

we use a lot of Fotospeed sepia toners , or mix from scratch.

Dean Williams · Mar 30, 2005

$2 for 12 packs! That's a heck of a bargain, Jeanette. I pay $4 a pack and have to drive 75 miles to get it.

George Papantoniou · Mar 30, 2005

Well, Jeanette, now that I've given it a second thought, I can make you an offer:
Since the Sepia toner is SO DANGEROUS, you can sell it to me (I'll give you 4 bucks for the lot, so you'll make a 2 $ profit), and I'll take care of its safe disposal (using it on my prints...
Well, seriously, it was a GREAT bargain, and I hope that the digital era shall bring us more of them since there'll be lots of ignorants selling their equipment and all the rest (films, papers, chemicals etc) for nothing...
Now that you've got it, use it but be careful
1. Not to breathe the vapor of the toner bath
2. (VERY IMPORTANT) - not to contaminate the toner bath with acid (I think that the bleach is an acid, so wash your prints thouroughly between the two solutions).
You have to keep in mind that the prints meant to be toned in sepia have to be printed 10-15% darker than normal for the toning lightens them up a bit. Use a strong paper developer and make them have strong, heavy shadows...
If you want beautifully toned prints, try chlorobromide FB single graded papers like Kentmere Kentona, Fomatone Classic or Bergger CB. You might be disappointed of you try it with certain MG (VC) papers.
The new Kodak odourless Sepia might be a thiocarbamide formula (although I haven't seen it yet, I'm just guessing).

Happy toning
George

gandolfi · Mar 31, 2005

I have to say: don't go for the odeourless toners!

I talked to a guy from the health department, and he strongly recommended the smelly ones.
why: because we tend to respect bad smell and the odeourless toners are as poisonous as the rest.
don't "dope" your self.
as he put it: if you're in Africa, in the savanna; and you hear a lion roar. don't be afraid.
a Lion that is silent is the one to care for!

brown toner shouldn't mix with acid - but one kind of acid is much worse that the rest....
I am not sure if I want to tell which one.

just have respect.

By the way, I allways mix my own toners (except selenium). It saves SO much money.

How Long will my toner keep?

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