How long to keep a customers negs?

Dave Parker · Aug 9, 2006

don sigl said:
The limits of copyright are controlled by contractual agreement between the photographer and the client. I'm not sure where you have done your commercial work, but I worked with fortune 500 companies for years and the contracts I signed with them gave them quite a bit of control over the use of the images I made for them. I don't have many of those original chromes in my files, but I doubt I would have been doing any work commercially if I went into negotiations dictating complete ownership of the images.

There is no question that a photographer should have rights and compensation. But in my opinion, if you are getting paid to document an event for a retail customer, you should be compensated (which I'm sure you are) and negotiate rights for image use. Holding the images for no other purpose than to elicit additional revenue from retail customers and then destroying the images when you can't get any, in my opinion, exceeds the bounds of ethiucal behavior.
In theory, the use of the images are limited if there are no model releases. I as a consumer I would not agree to such a contract where the photographer retains all rights to the images that contain my likeness without being significantly compensated. The idea that I would actually pay someone to give him such carte blanc is beyond my comprehension. In reality, the only worth (not including limited promotional purposes) the images have to the photographer are additional print purchases by the cunstomer. This is very limited worth for such a restrictive contract.

Don,

I think you are misunderstanding, I don't have any of those commercial chromes in my files either, we are talking about two different aspects of the business, if you find the ethics of those who work in the wedding business to be wrong, then that is fine, different aspects of the business have different circumstances, as far as my use of my images that I take, I use them for advertising purposes. And my clients and I discuss all aspects before hand, if they don't want them used, then it is spelled out in my contracts..I don't judge the way you do business and I am surprised you are judging the way others have successfully done business for many decades now. For the most part, I don't care how others do business, a question was asked, I posted what I do, it is up to the person seeking the information to pick and choose what might or might not apply to his situation, different locals and aspect of the photography business require and do have different ways they are done.

Have a great day.

Dave

Dave Parker · Aug 9, 2006

Petzi said:
Quite a pile but not one that you couldn't store on some shelf?

Petzi,

After over 25 years of being an active working photographer, I don't feel the need to store the negatives once the contractual obligation is over, my commercial and wedding work is just that a job, plain and simple the customer contracted with me to do a job and deliver a product, once that is done, then it is over, now my personal stuff for my own use, I still have much of that, but I also peridically go through those chromes and get rid of stuff..photography for most of my work is just a job....most of what I take, I have no emotional attachment. I am sorry if that rubs some the wrong way,.

I do however find it disturbing that another photographer would question the ethics of those who have models that work for them, as I said, I don't care what others do, they ask a question, I post my information, if it is applicable and it helps them, great, if it don't fit their definition of what they want to do, that is fine as well..

I mean really, if the client is happy and the jobs keep comming in, I don't see a problem, and the question that orginally started this, was a job that was not even paid for to begin with, the person who shot it, has no obligation if he was never paid...

Dave

Petzi · Aug 9, 2006

You can do what you want. I normally hand negatives made at weddings over to my clients when the job is done. You could do so if you think it burdens you to store negatives. I think it is a pity to dump them. They are the most authentic representation of a historic event.

I wouldn't hire you if you didn't give me the negatives, only to dump them later.

Dave Parker · Aug 9, 2006

Petzi said:
You can do what you want. I normally hand negatives made at weddings over to my clients when the job is done. You could do so if you think it burdens you to store negatives. I think it is a pity to dump them. They are the most authentic representation of a historic event.

Petzi,

That is fine, I don't have a problem with what you do, and I hope you don't care what I do, what works and has worked for me for a number of years, may not be what works for you, the client either purchases the negatives when the job is over or I hold them for a year and if they don't want them, I git rid of them, they always get corespondance from me before they are got rid of, my clients are happy and that is what matters to me..for the most part, what I do, don't affect you or any other photographer at all, just me and my clients. I have been doing it the same way, in which was taught to me many years ago, at the school and workshops I attended, my model works for me, thats all there really is to it..

Dave

GraemeMitchell · Aug 9, 2006

The negs/image rights are the photographers, period. What they do with them is up to the photog, but for a fellow photographer to argue it's ethically wrong to retain absolute control over negs and incorporate them into their business models, troubles me DEEPLY. This goes for commercial, wedding, whatever, doesn't matter.

It's your work. Prints can be the wedding parties "family archive" not the negatives, and in the case of commercial clients the usage rights they purchase are the usage rights they get until the renegotiate terms. There are no terms for an ethical arguement here. It's just business. You create something and you sell it.

This is a very un-APUG like conversation, and most people are stubborn as mules when it comes to this stuff, but it's good to talk about anyway. Ultimately each persons biz model is different, and it's never smart to tell another person what to do with their business or their love life, so all of the above is imho.

Petzi · Aug 9, 2006

Dave Parker said:
That is fine, I don't have a problem with what you do, and I hope you don't care what I do, .....
...for the most part, what I do, don't affect you or any other photographer at all, just me and my clients. I have been doing it the same way, in which was taught to me many years ago, at the school and workshops I attended, my model works for me, thats all there really is to it..

It is interesting how you say you don't care about what anybody else does, and how you expect everybody else not to care about what you do; but despite all of that indifference you say you have, you still bother hitting a key and posting a message in this forum.

MattKing · Aug 9, 2006

don sigl said:
Too bad you're probably not the guy who shot my parents wedding (1955). I'd love to have those negatives.

I would have had to have been quite a prodigy - I was born in 1956

When I was about 8, and my brother was 5, my Dad arranged to have a portrait taken of my brother and I by a friend who had a long established wedding and portrait studio. A very nice colour portrait resulted, and an 8x10 of same assumed the position of honour on top of my grandparents' TV.

About 15-18 years later, my Dad's friend had sold the studio, and I knew the new owner, and did a bit of work for him. By this time my grandparents' 8x10 was badly faded (but still in a place of honour). I managed to persuade the new owner to let me borrow the old negative of my brother and me. I took it down to my pro lab (ABC Photocolour) and had them do another 8x10. A new print, with fine colour resulted, and it took the place of honour on my grandmother's TV (my grandfather had passed away shortly before).

The negative went back to the studio's file.

The funniest part of the entire transaction was when I picked up the 8x10 - the staff at ABC asked if it was a photo of my kids

Dave Parker · Aug 9, 2006

Petzi said:
It is interesting how you say you don't care about what anybody else does, and how you expect everybody else not to care about what you do; but despite all of that indifference you say you have, you still bother hitting a key and posting a message in this forum.

Petzi,

Are you just a controvercial individual by nature, I have seen you do this exact thing to many others on here..

A person asked a question, I posted my thoughts, it was you guys that said you had a problem with the way I do business, so I told you I don't care what you think about the way I conduct business and believe me, I am not trying to argue with you. and yes, I have actually hit the submit key many thousand of times on here, when people ask opinions or questions about my products, in addition to when a fellow photographer is looking for information about how others do things..

I don't see what the big deal is.

Have a great day, or evening, what ever it may be where you are from.

Dave

Petzi · Aug 9, 2006

Dave, it is impossible to post here often without getting into some controversy of some kind with someone. There are hundreds of readers, and among them there is always someone who will take offense at something you said, or not said, or at the words you used, or at the tone in which they think you delivered your message (even though they never heard a tone), or at the attitude you have, or at whatever they find in your message of which they believe it is meant to offend them, or at whatever they freely interpret into your message.

eddym · Aug 9, 2006

don sigl said:
I'm sure this will stir up a lot of hate mail, but personally, I don't think any of you should keep any of the negatives, period. The idea that you should be the keepers of someones personal archives is well... ludicrous. The fact that you maintain them for future profit is... more realistic.

It is my opinion that this retail trend where people are repeatedly charged for access to their images is ethically wrong. I'm sure all of you would vehemently disagree, but I don't consider most wedding or standard portrait work stock photo material. How you feel you have a right to treat them as such is beyond me.

This is not hate mail, as I don't hate you nor anyone else. But I must take exception to your charge that I, or any other photographer, is unethical because we do not part with our own copyrighted material. I have 28 years' worth of negatives in my archives; some are portraits, some are weddings, and many are photos of ballet performances, which is a large part of my professional work. I go to great lengths to maintain them all under archival conditions. I have never thrown away any negatives from a professional shoot. Far from "ludicrous," I consider that I am performing a valuable service for my past clients. Although not many clients do come back to me for prints after years have passed, some do, and I am able to provide them for a resonable price. Yes, I charge for that service, and I see nothing unethical about doing so. After all, they are my property, and I have gone to the trouble and expense to maintain them in archival condition. Is this not a service worth recompense?

No, I do not consider these negatives stock material. I do not reproduce nor sell them as stock without a written model release from the clients. Personally, I resent your charge of unethical conduct, and I feel that you owe your fellow photographers on this website an apology.

Sparky · Aug 9, 2006

don sigl said:
I'm sure this will stir up a lot of hate mail, but personally, I don't think any of you should keep any of the negatives, period. The idea that you should be the keepers of someones personal archives is well... ludicrous. The fact that you maintain them for future profit is... more realistic.

What is this guy, some kind of TROLL? That's ridiculous! Check out standard policies at the ASMPs website. No self-respecting photographer would EVER part with their originals - unless paid INCREDIBLY well.

joeyk49 · Aug 10, 2006

Married 24 years... our wedding photographer was a friend of the family who shot nice medium format photos that I was very happy with...

One 16x20 portrait (which I'm sure he farmed out) has since started to fade from UV exposure. I've been contemplating contacting him in order to have another print done. It would be a huge disappointment to find out he dumped our negs, without offering us the chance to acquire them...

Lets think about being decent folks...not just business acquaintances...

Dave Parker · Aug 10, 2006

joeyk49 said:
Married 24 years... our wedding photographer was a friend of the family who shot nice medium format photos that I was very happy with...

One 16x20 portrait (which I'm sure he farmed out) has since started to fade from UV exposure. I've been contemplating contacting him in order to have another print done. It would be a huge disappointment to find out he dumped our negs, without offering us the chance to acquire them...

Lets think about being decent folks...not just business acquaintances...

I don't understand this, as long as everything is spelled out, which any photographer who is working should do, why does it come down to decent or business?, in the last 15+ years I have taken over 2000 weddings, with and average of 15 rolls each of 35mm film and that don't include the Medium format shots, now lets see, that is 1,080,000 exposures, just on weddings, that does not include commercial, stock or just personal pictures I have taken, why woud I want to or need to store those images for this amount of time? If it is spelled out, talked about and agreed on before hand, I don't see what the problem is, some of you guys seem to have a really emotional attachment because you have taken pictures...working as a photographer, it is nothing more than a product, and anyone who expects a photographer to keep his/her negatives into infinity is really asking alot, I am sorry, it really comes down to how you structure your business, and again, I have never had a problem, people understand the terms of my contracts and when I contact them, I run about a 40% rate of people that actually want the negatives, unfortunately, I run about a 60% rate of people who are not even married anymore! Again, I am sorry, but I don't do weddings for friends, I learned that a long time ago, so my wedding clients are my business aquaintences, nothing more nothing less, they get everything they contract for and most times more, but if they want to archive and preserve the day, it is their responsibility..

Man, amazing!

Dave

tim atherton · Aug 10, 2006

joeyk49 said:
Lets think about being decent folks...not just business acquaintances...

decent folks wouldn't get upset when they come looking for something they haven't even bothered to pay for only to find it's not there any more... nor would they expect you to still be carrying the cost

Petzi · Aug 10, 2006

tim atherton said:
nor would they expect you to still be carrying the cost

Oh yeah, that cost of filing some negs on a shelf... We have to be aware of that...

joeyk49 · Aug 10, 2006

24 years ago, no one said, "Ya know...these photos won't last forever...You might want to buy the negatives or have archival prints made..."
We had photos of our great grandparents from 100 years ago...why wouldn't our wedding photos outlast us???

What about saying, "I'm cleaning out the archives. If you'd like the negatives from your wedding, I'm sure we can work something out. Give me a call by 01/ 01/20xx or I'll assume that you're not interested." If you can't find the person/party, after your best effort, you can't find them...

But, what if you did the wedding of the next President of the US, before he (or she) even ran for their Town Council? What if you photographed the next Pope at his ordination... but chose to dump the negs after two or three years....???? What if Gardner tossed his plates because no one wanted photos of dead civil war soldiers after only a few years? What if they destroyed all copies of Gone with the Wind after its run in the theatres?C'mon... its not as simple as 'Business is business...' were talking PHOTOGRAPHY here!!!

I'm not talking about a brake job you did on my 91 Honda Accord, that I sold 7 years ago..., I don't want the worn brake pads back...nor do I expect you to keep them.

If I had been told on the day of contracting for service that I had an opportunity to secure the negatives, I would have acted on it. But I dare say that most aren't given the choice...especially in the digi-age...am I wrong? Please enlighten me if this is not the case...

Many times photographers capture and record history. Sometimes personal history, sometimes societal history. I think there's a bit of an obligation to prerserve that history for future generations...whether you/we want to or not.

jmo...

joeyk49 · Aug 10, 2006

Oh...fer gott...

If my photog tells me that the negs are toast, I won't be pitching a fit; 24 years is a good stretch... I would have just liked to have had the opportunity to purchase them from him...(the print just started to fade about a year or two ago...)

Dave Parker · Aug 10, 2006

I am sorry Joey,

I don't care if I am capturing history, that is something that will happen in the future, to me, it is a product, just as a brake job is, as long as I fullfill the contract with my customer, I have no obligation, it is just a plain and simple job to me, I actually do discuss this aspect BEFORE I sign a contract with them, and they are told that they CAN secure the negatives, I have no obligation to secure history and really have no interest in securing history, Photography is, and has been just a JOB to me for over 2 decades now, I make my money, the customer is happy with their products, they have the choice at the time they contract with me for the job, it is really a pretty simple thing..do you really think the news reporter spend alot of time on the news stories he reports during the day, when he is at home at night with his family or on vacation? I don't and I am sorry, I have not for over 25 years now, and I am still taking pictures almost every single day..sorry if that just hits you the wrong way, if I had taken your wedding 24 years ago, you would have been given the opportunity to get the whole package at the time of making the deal, because that is the way I have worked for over 25 years now..

Dave

tim atherton · Aug 10, 2006

Petzi said:
Oh yeah, that cost of filing some negs on a shelf... We have to be aware of that...

pay attention... no, the cost of doing a job and not being paid for it, then expecting to get the end product two years later

joeyk49 · Aug 11, 2006

Nothing to be sorry for Dave...

We disagree on the value of photographs, and that's that. You're up front with your clients and that's to be commended. My only gripe is with those that possess these snippets of history and discard them like yesterday's potato peelings...without care or regard for those that were a part of it.

blansky · Aug 11, 2006

My initial comments about "keepers of the family archives" had to do with my situation. I wasn't a commercial photographer, I was a portrait photographer who shot weddings, families, portraits etc.

I worked in a small city, and when I shot a wedding, very often a few years later I photographed the first kid all the way through to a bunch of kids and family portraits. If I hadn't sold the studio with the negatives, I probably still be shooting the grandkids wedding.

Essentially I was the "family photographer". Other photographers situations are probably different. Some probably never saw their clients after the initial sale.

So the reasons outlined above, I treated their negatives in such a way that they were always there for them. In reality I rarely made any reprints after the initial sale. But the negs were taking up very little room and would have had a hard time dumping them for no real good reason.

I would never sell the negative to the clients for the reasons that others have outlined, because I don't want some minilab mucking with them.

But I would give them to them if I was leaving the area and couldn't turn them over to my successor. I will say that someone tracked me down on the internet and asked if I still had their parents pictures, so they could give it to them for their 25 wedding anniversary.

They said the photographer whom I sold the studio to was out of business. As it turned out I had my favorites that I'd kept over the years and printed it for them. My gift. I just can't throw these things away.

What others do with their is their business. But the question was asked and I gave my opinion.

Michael

eddym · Aug 11, 2006

Petzi said:
Oh yeah, that cost of filing some negs on a shelf... We have to be aware of that...

Yes, we DO have to be aware of that. I live in a warm, humid environment, perfect for growing fungus on lenses and (especially) negatives. So I set aside a 100 square foot room of my home for these "shelves," I pay about 13 cents per kilowatt hour for air conditioning and a dehumidifier for that room, I buy archival negative file pages and binders from Light Impressions to store them in, I maintain a database of all of them for retrieval years later, I pay for a security system in case of fire or burglary...
Yeah, I do indeed have to be aware of that cost.

benjiboy · Aug 11, 2006

I have read this thread , and the points that people have made about the commercial, moral, and ethical issues of how long photographers should keep clients negatives with much interest, but notice that no one has mentoined what the legal requirement is, indeed if there is one, I know this will vary from country to country, but would think that it would be very useful to know for people involved in commercial photography.

don sigl · Aug 11, 2006

Dave Parker said:
I, I don't see what the problem is, some of you guys seem to have a really emotional attachment because you have taken pictures...working as a photographer, it is nothing more than a product, and
Dave

Dave:

The above statement cuts to the heart of the difference between you and I. I don't see photography as just a business, or images as just a product. I doubt any of your customers do either. For me, and a lot of other people it is much more than that. The emotional attachment you so easily disregard to some extent reflects on all photographers and the medium as a whole. Whether you believe it or not, your business does not operate in a vacuum. I find it disappointing that I (to some extent) must overcome this mentality as a preconception with some of my clients (Mostly professional and semi professional models who generally care about the way their likeness will be portrayed, and have a general distrust of photographers).

I find it amazing that you don't seem to have any inkling or understanding of that. I disagree with your position, but I'm not surprised that you, making your business your priority, have chosen to take it.
We clearly have taken different roads. Photography is much more than a business for me, and the images you state as "product" are nothing of the sort when it comes to a customer's personal event.

Regards,

don sigl · Aug 11, 2006

GraemeMitchell said:
The negs/image rights are the photographers, period. What they do with them is up to the photog, but for a fellow photographer to argue it's ethically wrong to retain absolute control over negs and incorporate them into their business models, troubles me DEEPLY. This goes for commercial, wedding, whatever, doesn't matter.

It's your work. Prints can be the wedding parties "family archive" not the negatives, and in the case of commercial clients the usage rights they purchase are the usage rights they get until the renegotiate terms. There are no terms for an ethical arguement here. It's just business. You create something and you sell it.

This is a very un-APUG like conversation, and most people are stubborn as mules when it comes to this stuff, but it's good to talk about anyway. Ultimately each persons biz model is different, and it's never smart to tell another person what to do with their business or their love life, so all of the above is imho.

Sorry this troubles you, But I find it deeply troubling that the current business model we are discussing is so ethically flawed. I do believe you get paid for your services. But when the "product" has no more value to you, I feel it is wrong to simply disguard it. If you can't see that ethical argument, I probably can't do anything to modify your opinion.

I have many thousands of negatives that I've created over the course of a 25 year career. Some I've made money on. Some I haven't. But most of the commercial work I've done is not on the shelf. And frankly, I don't care or miss it. I got paid for it, and where it is now simply doesn't matter. If those former clients care, they have the chromes and the professional acumen to let me know if the work is being used in a way that entitles me to further revenue. But most of that work has a fairly short lifespan, and just collects dust in some corporate archive. If they want to destroy it, its their decision. Not mine.
And if you feel this is a very un-APUG discussion, I think you may have a very narrow perspective of what this forum is about.

Regards,

How long to keep a customers negs?

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency