How long in fixer befor I can turn the lights on?

tbm · Mar 6, 2009

I use Arista Rapid Fixer from Freestyle Camera in Hollywood, and Lowell Huff at Clayton Chemicals, who manufactures it, told me during a recent phone conversation that only 30 seconds is needed to fix Ilford's RC papers in it. I give it a minute nevertheless and at 30 seconds I turn on the light to examine test strips as well as prints, especially the latter to determine if artifacts got onto my prints while the negatives were sitting in my enlarger.

stradibarrius · Mar 6, 2009

Ralph, When I look at yor site it is very obvious you know a thing or two about photography!!! Everybody has a different take on what is a great shot and what is a good shot. Your tonal range, lighting and overall style in how I try to visualize my shots in my head. I am glad to find out that I don't have to wait 7 mins. for each print!

Thanks everyone!

xtolsniffer · Mar 6, 2009

For Ilford RC paper and Ilford rapid fixer, 30 seconds in the fixer to allow you check that all the paper is away, then light on and a further 30 seconds looking at your wonderful creation/abomination to decide whether to whoop or cry, then a bit more just in case, then out into the wash....

RalphLambrecht · Mar 6, 2009

tbm said:
I use Arista Rapid Fixer from Freestyle Camera in Hollywood, and Lowell Huff at Clayton Chemicals, who manufactures it, told me during a recent phone conversation that only 30 seconds is needed to fix Ilford's RC papers in it. I give it a minute nevertheless and at 30 seconds I turn on the light to examine test strips as well as prints, especially the latter to determine if artifacts got onto my prints while the negatives were sitting in my enlarger.

One minute is a good choice, because 30s is theoretically enough to fix but not always enough to secure an even liquid distribution over the entire print.

Photo Engineer · Mar 6, 2009

If you are using an alkaline or neutral fix and no stop. And if you use static water for the rinse after the developer and not running water, you can fog paper if you turn the lights on too soon. You see, developer gradually builds up in the static rinse and then is carried into the fix which then becomes a developer with a silver halide solvent in it, which assists in fogging the paper and developing it further. Light only adds to the injury.

So, if you use an alkaline fix, make sure you use a stop or running water for a rinse.

PE

nworth · Mar 6, 2009

It depends both on the fixer and your intended use of the print. If it is just a test print or test strip, 30 seconds in rapid fix or a minute in regular fix will clear the emulsion enough to make a good judgment. If it is a print you may want to keep, keep the white light off for at least half the recommended fixing time, preferably for the entire recommended time.

walter23 · Mar 6, 2009

stradibarrius said:
When I take the B&W print out of the stop bath and place it into the fixer tray, how long does it have to be in the fixer before it is "light safe". Is it immediate or do I have to wait the entire time it is in the fixer?

For test strips I usually turn the light on after 10 or 20 seconds. For real prints, half the total fixing time.

The thing to remember is that paper is slow to discolor under normal light when there's no developer present, and stop bath kills the developer. So after a few seconds in the fixer you should have total development arrest and at least partial fixation anyway... so it's not a big deal to turn on the lights even just a few seconds after swirling around in the fixer a bit.. but for real prints, like I say, I wait until half the fixing time to be safe.

I do film in drums so I don't open them up until the fixation is complete.

BetterSense · Mar 6, 2009

Photo Engineer said:
If you are using an alkaline or neutral fix and no stop. And if you use static water for the rinse after the developer and not running water, you can fog paper if you turn the lights on too soon. You see, developer gradually builds up in the static rinse and then is carried into the fix which then becomes a developer with a silver halide solvent in it, which assists in fogging the paper and developing it further. Light only adds to the injury.

So, if you use an alkaline fix, make sure you use a stop or running water for a rinse.

PE

Forgive my ignorance, but what kinds of fixers are alkaline? I usually use Kodak fixer.

Photo Engineer · Mar 6, 2009

TF-3, TF-4, and then there are the nearly neutral ones.

PE

nworth · Mar 7, 2009

walter23 said:
For test strips I usually turn the light on after 10 or 20 seconds. For real prints, half the total fixing time.

The thing to remember is that paper is slow to discolor under normal light when there's no developer present, and stop bath kills the developer. So after a few seconds in the fixer you should have total development arrest and at least partial fixation anyway... so it's not a big deal to turn on the lights even just a few seconds after swirling around in the fixer a bit.. but for real prints, like I say, I wait until half the fixing time to be safe.

I do film in drums so I don't open them up until the fixation is complete.

True, but the undeveloped and unfixed emulsion leaves a slight veil on the print. After 20 seconds in rapid fix it is pretty well gone.

dfoo · Mar 9, 2009

PE, doesn't stop kill TF4 due to the acidity?

MFP · Mar 9, 2009

Uh Oh, I've always been told that on only needs to wait until it is stopped to turn the lights on..... oh.

Photo Engineer · Mar 9, 2009

dfoo said:
PE, doesn't stop kill TF4 due to the acidity?

No, it is buffered.

PE

Doremus Scudder · Mar 10, 2009

Warning: Hijack

Not really on topic, but related:

I stopped using alkaline fixers for film developing for exactly the reason PE describes. I found that even with a running water rinse, film developer would get carried over into the fix and cause streaking and fogging if the lights were turned on too early (I tray develop). PMK was a bigger problem than most in this respect. This got worse as a long developing session drew to an end and the fix became more contaminated and my concentration and carefulness fell off somewhat. Acid stop, acid fix, no problem.

Nice to know, however, that alkaline fixers like TF-4 are buffered enough to be able to use an acid stop. Maybe I'll try it again for printing, since it is supposed to wash out easier (maybe someone could explain why that happens...).

Best,

Doremus Scudder
www.DoremusScudder

Photo Engineer · Mar 10, 2009

Doremus, use that acid stop!

PE

Loren Sattler · Mar 20, 2009

I turn on the lights immediately (5 seconds) after putting the paper in the fixer tray, without seeing any bad effect. I believe that 10 seconds in the stop bath has made the developer totally ineffective.

I am impatient in the darkroom and squeeze time out of the process where ever possible. For example, I leave RC test prints in the developer for only about 45 seconds, then 10 seconds in the stop bath, then 5 seconds in the fixer, then the lights come on. This makes the darkroom process more enjoyable for my impatient personality.

For the keepers, I use fiber paper and everything slows down as can be expected. The final print is developed for 2 minutes, but test strips for only about 1:15 to determine proper exposure. These shortcuts save a lot of time without sacrificing quality.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 20, 2009

Loren Sattler said:
I turn on the lights immediately (5 seconds) after putting the paper in the fixer tray, without seeing any bad effect. I believe that 10 seconds in the stop bath has made the developer totally ineffective.

I am impatient in the darkroom and squeeze time out of the process where ever possible. For example, I leave RC test prints in the developer for only about 45 seconds, then 10 seconds in the stop bath, then 5 seconds in the fixer, then the lights come on. This makes the darkroom process more enjoyable for my impatient personality.

For the keepers, I use fiber paper and everything slows down as can be expected. The final print is developed for 2 minutes, but test strips for only about 1:15 to determine proper exposure. These shortcuts save a lot of time without sacrificing quality.

How do you make sure that the final print is identical to the last test print, if the processing is so different between the two?

BetterSense · Mar 20, 2009

If the prints look the same, what difference does it make if they are identical?

Inspired by this thread, I started turning on the lights as soon as the print hits the fixer. It's very liberating, but takes some getting used to. It's mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter.

EASmithV · Mar 20, 2009

Just dip it in for like 10-15 seconds if it's only a test strip.

JBrunner · Mar 20, 2009

BetterSense said:
If the prints look the same, what difference does it make if they are identical?

Then why not 1:15 for a developing time all around?

One of the biggest keys to fine print making is consistency. I would go so far as to advance consistency as one of the most important aspects of actually having a bit of control in arriving at an intent with ones work. Everyone gets to do what they want, of course, and can justify it any way they want.

I however, for one, would never consider arriving at an exposure using a method that varies in some way from the way I expose and develop my final print, and if I was teaching someone to print, I would discourage such a practice. YMMV.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 21, 2009

JBrunner said:
Then why not 1:15 for a developing time all around?

One of the biggest keys to fine print making is consistency. I would go so far as to advance consistency as one of the most important aspects of actually having a bit of control in arriving at an intent with ones work. Everyone gets to do what they want, of course, and can justify it any way they want.

I however, for one, would never consider arriving at an exposure using a method that varies in some way from the way I expose and develop my final print, and if I was teaching someone to print, I would discourage such a practice. YMMV.

Amen to that!
Could not have said it better than that myself.
There are no shortcuts in fine photography.

Loren Sattler · Mar 21, 2009

This will respond to J Bruners and Ralph Lamprecht's comments about consistency.

First, a test strip for me is simply that. With Ilford or Adox (old Agfa) RC glossy paper, I typically aim for test strip exposures of about 16, 13 and 10 seconds (usually about f8 for the lens with 6x6 Tri-X negatives). With dektol at 1:2, the paper starts coming to life in about 10 seconds and is probably fully or nearly fully developed at about 30 seconds. My 45 second time is more than enough for my test strip to sufficiently steer me to a final exposure time. I do not make a test strip at my estimated final exposure time.

Frankly, I doubt I could tell the difference between an RC print developed for 45 seconds vs. 60 seconds. I do not believe any more density appears in the final 15 seconds, but just in case the blacks are affected subtely, I develop full size prints for 60 seconds as the manufacturers data sheets call for.

As for fixing, I am not concerned if my test strips are under fixed and would not hold up over time. They are in the waste basket within minutes of fixing. I have never seen a difference in a final print fixed for 3 minutes vs. the test print fixed for 10 seconds before turning on the lights.

In my opinion, these procedures do not sacrifice quality, they simply save time.

With fiber paper, everything slows down some, but I apply the same thinking. Test strips are developed for a little over a minute, full size prints for 2 minutes.

Again, this works for well for my impatient nature.

RalphLambrecht · Mar 22, 2009

Loren

Please don't change your way of working because of what I write if your results are as intended, but a few things caught my eye.

Loren Sattler said:
With dektol at 1:2, the paper starts coming to life in about 10 seconds and is probably fully or nearly fully developed at about 30 seconds.

There is such a thing as 'full development' but it takes a long time. Midtones and highlights darken further at least until the paper fogs. I can clearly see a density difference in the highlights between a print developed for 1 or for 2 minutes.

Loren Sattler said:
I do not make a test strip at my estimated final exposure time.

Impatient or not, you should. You cannot guess what the final print looks like from a small test strip. I'm afraid, with your method, you are just accepting a guess. I make a final full print in 1/12 stop around the estimated exposure time and another set in 1/4 grade around the estimated contrast. This often changes my final settings.

Loren Sattler said:
Frankly, I doubt I could tell the difference between an RC print developed for 45 seconds vs. 60 seconds. I do not believe any more density appears in the final 15 seconds, but just in case the blacks are affected subtely, I develop full size prints for 60 seconds as the manufacturers data sheets call for.

I don't think I could either, but I can tell 1 minute from 2! The manufacturers' data sheets are made for impatient commercial lab workers, not for fine-art printers. They are just as reliable as the miles/gallon prediction of your car manufacturer. Data sheets are a good starting point, final values should come from customized testing.

Loren Sattler said:
I have never seen a difference in a final print fixed for 3 minutes vs. the test print fixed for 10 seconds before turning on the lights.

I don't know how 10s fixing is even possible. It takes me longer to submerge, collect and drain the print. Anything less than 30s gives uneven fixing. You don't need to fix for more than 2 minutes. After 8 minutes the fixer starts to bleach the print visibly, but fixing times that long are purely academic anyway. Underfixing is the most common cause for print decay!

Loren Sattler said:
With fiber paper, everything slows down some, but I apply the same thinking. Test strips are developed for a little over a minute, full size prints for 2 minutes.

There is a gigantic difference between 1 and 2 minutes development for FB printing. You must see that :confused:. I prefer factorial development for FB. After the print midtones are fully visible, I apply a factor of 6 to 8 to calculate the total development time. Usually, I end up with 3.5-4 minutes.

I prefer 1 excellent print a year over 100 mediocre prints a day.

Happy printing.

Toffle · Mar 22, 2009

I just want to get back to the original question here...

"When I take the B&W print out of the stop bath and place it into the fixer tray, how long does it have to be in the fixer before it is "light safe". Is it immediate or do I have to wait the entire time it is in the fixer?"

[EDIT...long winded and pointless debate deleted... go ahead, boys and beat each other up...]

The way I was taught, and the practice I have followed is that after an appropriately exposed, developed and stopped print is placed in the fixer, all development stops and the lights can be turned on. The print can then be evaluated and appropriate notes/adjustments made ready for the next print... All prints are allowed to fix completely. This was not considered a shortcut or bad printing, but common practice of an effective workflow. I have not seen any sign of continued development of a print once it is in the fixing bath. If there is empirical evidence to the contrary, I am open to the discussion.

Cheers,

How long in fixer befor I can turn the lights on?

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