How is the industry *actually* ?

Hey folks, some of you may remember my thread "young photographer seeks wisdom". This essentially is a more refined sequel. I apologize if this is the wrong forum or website to be asking these questions.

Recently I have taken a mounting interest in fashion photography, and in my research about steps for my future, I've come to a few large conclusions that I want to bounce off of someone-- preferably who knows what they're talking about.
Until a few months ago, I was planning on double-majoring at my university, a business/finance and 'photography' degree after finishing my first year of being undecided. I submitted a portfolio and was able to get into the graduate level photography class as a freshman. Upon accessing the equipment and "studio space" (a handful of strobes and a single reflector in front of essentially a tarp), it was apparent my photography dreams would not, and could not flourish here... I had more equipment in my old high school !
I guess I had planned on pursing the photography thing to eventually drop it for a "real job" in finance or something, but after a career fair and some research into what the business/finance world actually looks like, I think I would actually rather die. It's the kind of thing where I hit my head and realized that I have a dream that I need to pursue, and doing anything else would feel like throwing my life away, which is scary.
Luckily, I feel as though, at least, I have the discretion to cut through all of the social media "pop culture photography" BS and produce a portfolio that will come across as refined, cohesive, and intentional to the trained eye.
For the portfolio aspect, I've been able to solve the problem of studio space. A friend of mine who is an old local fashion (and eventually airplane/commercial advertising) photographer has a capacious studio and is willing to rent it out to me monthly if I can provide him with a decent proposal in terms of portfolio style and planned entry into the industry (partly why I'm writing this). It's an incredible opportunity for someone of my age and background, and it would be stupid of me to not try my darnedest.

After a small amount of research it became abundantly apparent that where you live (and go to school) matters hugely in terms of making connections into the fashion/glamor/figure industry, with major cities being LA, Chicago, and NYC, of course.
Which brings me to my first question: The Fashion Institute of Technology in New York offers a (supposedly) damn good fashion photography education in 2 and 4 year options, and out of state tuition is almost the same as my in-state tuition at my current school, even before financial aid (which I thankfully am not short of). Is it stupid to knock out gen-ed and pre-requisites at my state school, shoot a whole bunch, save, and then transfer to FIT in NYC to pursue this dream of being a fashion photographer???

Additionally, what does the industry look like for a young post-graduate photographer in NYC? Obviously there are many more opportunities than where I'm from, but if it's a hugely saturated market with little opportunity for growth, is it even worth it? What about on the senior level? What does working with creative directors and editorial teams look like? How hard is it to land something with a salary? What is the turnover like? Is it seasonal? How hard is it to survive?

I fortunately have enough money to attempt this for at least my junior and senior year. I would be working and living with roommates and commuting to school. What do you think? Can anyone who's more knowledgable about the industry in this area provide some clarification? Thank you!

And to anyone who took the time to read through this whole essay: thank you! It really actually means a lot to me.

This is my point of view and it's likely wrong but here goes.
I'm now retired, except for my youtube channel, but worked my entire career as a photographer. I did study photography at college and later in life got a Master Fine Art. There is no real Master of Photography program out there.

There are no full time jobs... expect to be a freelance, which isn't a bad thing.

Location has a lot to do with being successful. I shot Pro Sports for a living and was on the road a lot but it would be helpful to be near pro teams. Chicago and NYC have the most sports/team .... possible work dates.

There are four cities that have a real Fashion industry. You should live in one of those cities, and learn the language. I would put them in this order buy maybe the order is wrong. Paris, London, NYC, Milano. This is where the money will be in the fashion industry. If you're not willing to live in one of those cities you'll be shooting level 2 fashion for no money and trying to shoot model portfolio's for girls who have no money to spend.

It will take a few years to figure it all out. Figure 8-10 years after you're done school. The degree in business will be very useful as most photographers lack business knowledge and run out of money before they really get going. Plus it's a great fall-back degree.

You need to do great work so if you're work currently sucks, you'll have to work on that. You'll also have to get along with people. This is the most important aspect of the industry. It's easier to meet the important people than you think. First of all, there isn't that many so the circle is rather small. It doesn't matter who you know now, it's who you will need to know. I was a guest at a wedding once for a sports photographer friend and everyone sitting at my table was a Sports Illustrated Photo Editor... that was helpful.

You'll need an agent. I'm on my fourth agency currently but having an agent was part of the success.

I would finish off the business degree, then move to NYC and take the Fashion Photography course. A two year course might be enough to get the basics down and get pointed in the right direction. While at school volunteer at fashion week, and any major fashion shows you can get into. You'll learn more as an usher at fashion week than you would at a school studio.

It doesn't matter what equipment the school has since it's out of date at all the schools anyways. You'll need to rent so get used to it. Lot's of rental gear in NYC and Paris, maybe not so much if you want to live elsewhere. Many rental houses have student discounts.

You don't need to assist to get started. In fact lots of people become career assistants so it didn't help them much.

It's unlikely you'll be using film for most jobs, it's a digital world... I only say this because this is a film forum.

I have a youtube channel about shooting film. My channel will be of no use to you and very few of the other channels will either. However this other channel by a commercial photographer near London is spot on.... you should watch a few of his videos.... https://www.youtube.com/@TinHouseStudioUK/videos

Not sure if any of this will help, but enjoy the ride.

-Rob

TheoLeakas2005 said:

I guess I had planned on pursing the photography thing to eventually drop it for a "real job" in finance or something, but after a career fair and some research into what the business/finance world actually looks like, I think I would actually rather die.

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I understand. Still, I'm with @Rob Skeoch : finish the degree. Your life after college will be a whole lot easier if you do, regardless what line of work you end up in. Even if you decide to do something entirely different, the degree can still open doors to you that would remain closed (or even entirely invisible) without it. And at least, it may give you access to a dependable source of income, even if it's not your dream job. "Not a dream job" is still a whole lot better than the "nightmare job" you may have to take on without a degree to sustain yourself while your photography career is still taking off (or if it fails to).

Other than that, I can't really comment since I'm not a pro photographer. The only thing I do notice is that the successful pro's I do know (artists as well as commercial photographers in various areas) are all successful because they're well-connected. So in this sense, too, I can echo what Rob says above.

Rob Skeoch said:

It's unlikely you'll be using film for most jobs, it's a digital world... I only say this because this is a film forum.

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Yes, agreed on the first part; not so much the second, although our community still exists to a large extent from film-oriented people. However, there's plenty of room for digital and hybrid topics on this forum and we encourage anyone to also share insights, stories, recommendations and questions that are entirely unrelated to film!

Just wanted to note as far as undergraduate education goes: if you maintain residency (and keep proof of this) in New York state for one year, and at the time of this one year you have less than 8 completed terms in your undergraduate college career, and your income (or parents income if dependent) is less than $125,000, you can get the Excelsior Scholarship which is essentially a free ride (outside of books and fees) by New York state for undergrads.

I agree with what the others have said above and want to strongly emphasize the message:

Finish an undergrad degree in an accredited program from a real university (state schools are great). The business degree (maybe not finance but rather entrepreneurship) would be good but really, it almost doesn't matter....a degree in French Literature or Art History is almost as good. Choose a major that allows you to learn about something that really interests you and it'll be much easier. The business degree will help you a lot as a photographer because if you earn a living doing photography you will almost certainly be running your own business.

TheoLeakas2005 said:

For the portfolio aspect, I've been able to solve the problem of studio space. A friend of mine who is an old local fashion (and eventually airplane/commercial advertising) photographer has a capacious studio and is willing to rent it out to me monthly if I can provide him with a decent proposal in terms of portfolio style and planned entry into the industry (partly why I'm writing this). It's an incredible opportunity for someone of my age and background, and it would be stupid of me to not try my darnedest.

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This sounds like a promising relationship with someone that could offer mentorship and perhaps opportunities to work while you study. in the short term I'd suggest working hard on your proposal to this photographer because it will help you to get your plan and goals on paper if you haven't done so already. Do you like this photographer's style and approach to photography? Is this person modeling a high quality career however you would define it?

Getting some professional experience assisting this photographer would be a win if you answered yes above. Right now you think you would hate finance but you could be wrong about that, and right now you think you'll love photography but you could be wrong there too. Once you start working you'll know if photography is worth the investment.

Edited to add: I'm not a professional fashion photographer, just a professional dad with two sons in college: one studying finance and one studying art.

The business and people ends are more important than anything else you do in any industry or trade you go into business for.

I too strongly recommend that you finish your degree first. By the time you finish the degree, your interests will change and the fields of interest will change. Best of luck.

I don't work in the photography industry, but I read about the industry enough to know that fashion photography is the sector that's most at risk of being profoundly affected by the development of AI.

In fact, it already is. There are companies that specializes in AI-generated models — Lalaland.ai being one of them. Yes, there was some backlash when Levi's announced last year that they were starting a partnership with them to created AI-generated models, and they had to backpedal, but that's temporary. The biggest companies will have problems justifying it, but not the smaller ones. And why wouldn't they use AI? Too much money to be saved: no more expensive photoshoots on the beaches of Rio of Bora Bora, no more large crew—photographer, lighting, models, assistants, etc.—to pay. Of course, they'll still be a need for big star fashion models, but these photoshoots will be reserved to a small, select group of photographers.

Not saying that AI is cheap—just look at the pricing on the Lalaland.ai website (link below) and you see it's not for everybody. But the advantages also impact marketing, distribution, etc.

Add to that the fact that in the fashion-photography industry AI doesn't cause as many ethical issues as elsewhere—apart from putting people out of jobs, that is.

Again, I'm no expert on this particular industry, and I certainly can't read the future. But there are certainly many signs that tells that because of AI making a living as a fashion photographer will become more and more challenging in the coming years.