How important are rear movements?

david b · Feb 11, 2006

I am thinking about getting the Toyo 45CF camera. It doesn't have rear movements.

I don't plan on doing architectural work. Mostly still lifes, portraits, and some landscape work.

So is not have rear movements a big deal?

David H. Bebbington · Feb 11, 2006

Tilt movements are the most important:
Front tilt involves no perspective distortion but does involve the risk of running out of lens coverage.
Rear tilt will never run out of lens coverage but distorts perspective by elongating objects on the screen in the direction of the tilt.
Even with landscape work, vertical objects (like fence posts, trees away from the center of the frame) will look odd (especially with a wide-angle lens) if you point the camera down and don't use back tilt to return the back to the perpendicular. Lots of studio subjects (for example, flowers) will require quite a lot of back tilt and probably swing too to get enough depth of field for front-to-back sharpness. For the sake of lightness, I often use a Crown Graphic (with no back movements) out of doors (don't use a wide angle much, use mostly either 135 or 210 on 4x5"), but I wouldn't want to be without back movements in the studio.

Regards,

David

ras351 · Feb 11, 2006

For portraits I tend not to use rear movements, for landscape sometimes, and nearly always for still lifes when I need a lot of perspective control - especially when I run out of lens coverage. As David has mentioned tilts are the most useful. It can also depend somewhat on the camera. I have a flat bed field camera and mostly use the rear tilt in combination with front tilt to get the bed out of the frame with wide angle lenses (especially in 'portrait' mode). It can also be used to increase bed clearance if you're using graduated filters or need a bit more rise/fall than the front standards will allow. You can do a similar thing using swing to increase shift. Given your suggestion that you'll be photographing mostly still lifes I'd probably recommend a camera with at least rear tilt but of course you're more than welcome to ignore me.

Roger.

doughowk · Feb 11, 2006

I do mostly landscapes & rear tilt is frequently used. A camera such as a Shen-Hao is comparable in price to the Toyo, but has all the movements normally utilized in LF.

j_landecker · Feb 11, 2006

I rarely use rear tilt because, instead of pointing the camera downwards and returning the back to vertical with rear tilt, I usually level the camera and use front fall or rear rise to "look" downwards. Tilting the whole camera down also means that the front standard needs to be brought vertical or adjusted until the focal plane is in the right place. Are others using the rear tilt technique because their cameras don't have enough or any front fall or rear rise?

Ole · Feb 11, 2006

I tend to use front tilt and rear swing - on those cameras that have them. At present only one of my 11 (!) LF and plate cameras have front swing, only three have front tilt, four have front shift&rise only, the rest have front shift&rise coupled with rear tilt and swing.

I rarely find this a problem, although I sometimes have to remind myself which camera I'm using.

Frank Petronio · Feb 11, 2006

Com'on, don't buy one of those plastic Toyos. Buy a real camera! There are so many better choices than that Toyo...

Jim Chinn · Feb 11, 2006

Rear movements are not essential for most landscape work. Logical use of camera tilt combined with front movemets usually will help with depth of field and keep verticals parallel. But for architecture or shooting more close up images, rear tilt can be useful.

david b · Feb 11, 2006

Thanks everyone for your replies. I guess I will have to take a look at the Shen-Hao's.

photomc · Feb 11, 2006

Rather than give a direct answer, really not qualified to do that, but offer the following David. While you say you will do landscapes, have seen your work and know the area you live in is full of great old buildings. When I first started I had the same thoughts as you, but find that I use the back tilt, back rise/fall on the B&J, and would have to work a bit harder for some shots without using the front shift. IMO the post above recommending the Shen-Hao is very valid, plus it is a very nice looking camera for about the same price. Good luck whichever you choose.

dphphoto · Feb 11, 2006

Fred Picker used to advocate using the rear tilt to get foreground objects to "loom." It's a neat trick, sometimes, but one that requires rear movements.
Of course, you can simply lean the Toyo back when you set up to get a "rear tilt." But I think the Shen Hao suggestion above is the right idea. Dean

roteague · Feb 11, 2006

Don't. I couldn't live without the rear movements. A better choice is the Toyo 45AII.

roteague · Feb 11, 2006

Frank Petronio said:
Com'on, don't buy one of those plastic Toyos. Buy a real camera! There are so many better choices than that Toyo...

Frank, the Toyo cameras are not plastic. I don't know where you got that idea. I have a Toyo 45AII and it is a metal field camera. The 45CF is also not plastic, it is carbon fibre. IMO, the Toyo 45AII is one of the finest field cameras on the market, much better than that cheap, Chinese made Shen-Hao. I love my 45AII so much, I'm getting ready to buy another.

roteague · Feb 11, 2006

dphphoto said:
Fred Picker used to advocate using the rear tilt to get foreground objects to "loom." It's a neat trick, sometimes, but one that requires rear movements.
Of course, you can simply lean the Toyo back when you set up to get a "rear tilt." But I think the Shen Hao suggestion above is the right idea. Dean

Depends upon which Toyo. With the 45AII, you flip up a small locking lever (which acts as a neutral detent), unlock the back knobs. Once you tilt the back where you want it, you simply tighten the back knobs.

The Shen Hao is not any near the quality of the Toyo.

raucousimages · Feb 11, 2006

I am a big Toyo fan. I have 45 AII. D, E(x2), 125VX, 810M, G and what has been called the Frankencamera, A purpose built wide angle camera made from toyo parts. If you need light weight and can live with the limited movement the CF is a fair camera but I will take the extra weight of my AII to have more extension and movement. With that said most of my field work in 4x5 is going to my 125VX I just use a larger pack but I love the control. my daughter uses a 45E, she just removes the rail to pack it.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 11, 2006

I personally don't like the "looming" foreground effect, so for me, rear tilt is not essential for landscape. It really depends on your subject, style, and how clever you are about using indirect movements when you need them.

Think of the front and rear standards as moving freely in space, unconnected by the rail or camera bed. If you want to tilt the back backward but don't have rear tilt, you can tilt the whole camera backward on the tripod head, drop the front standard and apply front forward tilt to adjust the plane of focus--if the camera has enough flexibility for that kind of movement on the front standard (it may involve dropping the bed on a press camera or mounting the camera on its side or upside down). It's not as quick and convenient as having a camera with full movements, but it doesn't mean it can't be done.

roteague · Feb 11, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
Think of the front and rear standards as moving freely in space, unconnected by the rail or camera bed. If you want to tilt the back backward but don't have rear tilt, you can tilt the whole camera backward on the tripod head, drop the front standard and apply front forward tilt to adjust the plane of focus--if the camera has enough flexibility for that kind of movement on the front standard (it may involve dropping the bed on a press camera or mounting the camera on its side or upside down). It's not as quick and convenient as having a camera with full movements, but it doesn't mean it can't be done.

True, but with the Toyo you would wind up photographing the bed of the camera with those movements. That would work fine with a Linhof I believe.

removed account4 · Feb 11, 2006

i dont' have a cf, but i have the rail-version the 45cx. it too is carbon fiber and while it can't take a beating like an all metal camera, it still works very well. i've had and used it constantly for 6 years ...

david -
i am not sure if you have an enlarger to enlarge 4x5 film ... contact prints are nice, jewel-like and really draw the viewer in. another thing you might think about, being in the the land of enchantment and all, is getting a 5x7 camera. a lot of the lenses for 4x5 will cover 5x7, the contact print is more than 2x the size of a 4x5 ... AND they often can be bought with a 4x5 reducing back

good luck!
john

rbarker · Feb 11, 2006

As others have mentioned, while you can "get by" without having rear movements, you essentially lose the ability to control perspective. If you want verticals (e.g. trees and/or buidling edges) to be parallel, the camera must be set up so the back is plumb. Thus, vertical compositional adjustments can only be made via rise/fall of the front standard. Alternatively, the fixed-back field camera can be used in a manner similar to a 35mm, where perspective controls just aren't considered. Very limiting for a large-format camera.

For better flexibility of technique, one of the other Toyo models (or a different brand that offers all conventional movements, even if limited) might be a better choice. I use a (metal) Toyo 45AX in the field, which is the same as the 45AII, except that the back rotation is "manual". These can be found on the used market at about the same price, or lower, as a new Shen Hao.

John Kasaian · Feb 11, 2006

Eat more fiber! ;-)

Claire Senft · Feb 11, 2006

I am a fan of exoctic dancing. I consider rear movements to be vital to go from minature to large format.

Phong · Feb 11, 2006

Claire Senft said:
I am a fan of exoctic dancing. I consider rear movements to be vital to go from minature to large format.

I am into bellows dancing too.

As for rear movements, to add to the comments already posted, I use them more on 8x10 than 4x5 (longer bellows to reach the front, front movement easier to use on my 4x5 (a Technika) than rear, while it's the reverse with my 8x10 (a Kokak Commercial View) . How important rear movements depends a lot on what you shoot (e.g. archirectural and studio table top can benefit more than landscape or portrait), and how precise you are.

- Phong

david b · Feb 11, 2006

Well I have recently been given a linhof tech III and a crown graphic. neither have lenses.

No matter, I would love to have a 5x7 field camera. any recommendations?

haziz · Mar 10, 2006

While rear movements are useful the 45CF is a fine camera. Of my several cameras including a Linhof Tech IV, Canham Woodfield, and Zone IV, the 45CF actually is my favourite. It is also quite sturdy, much more sturdy than the impression of carbon fiber implies.

If you have'nt decided yet, I would in fact advocate for the 45CF.

Sincerely,

Hany.

Changeling1 · Mar 10, 2006

david b said:
Well I have recently been given a linhof tech III and a crown graphic. neither have lenses.

No matter, I would love to have a 5x7 field camera. any recommendations?

Look around for a new or gently used Wisner 5x7 Technical Field. They are made of the finest woods, brass and leather right here in America with all the movements of a mono-rail view camera. The Wisner line of cameras are also surprisingly affordable when compared to the competition.

How important are rear movements?

david b

David H. Bebbington

ras351

doughowk

j_landecker

Ole

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Frank Petronio

Jim Chinn

david b

photomc

dphphoto

roteague

roteague

roteague

raucousimages

David A. Goldfarb

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roteague

removed account4

rbarker

John Kasaian

Claire Senft

Phong

david b

haziz

Changeling1

How important are rear movements?

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