how I hate paterson reels

bobfowler · Jan 17, 2006

I always take my Paterson reels apart before putting them away. If I have any doubt that they are perfectly dry, I take a blow dryer to them before putting them back together. Never had a problem. Now the cheap reels that LOOK like Paterson (AP I think) just plain ole suck...

TimVermont · Jan 17, 2006

I leave the leader out when rewinding, cut it off square in daylight, then radius the leading corners using a fingernail clipper. Takes longer to write than to do. No problems after that.

srs5694 · Jan 17, 2006

re: Paterson reels

bobfowler said:
Never had a problem. Now the cheap reels that LOOK like Paterson (AP I think) just plain ole suck...

I'd heard the same thing after I bought my AP reels and had problems with them, so I bought a new Paterson reel. My experience is that my Paterson reel isn't much better than my AP reels. I find my Hewes stainless steel reels, OTOH, to be much easier to load.

Mind you, the problems I've had with the plastic reels are sporadic. They'll work fine for many rolls and then just jam up partway through loading, even with trimmed film edges and after drying the reels for days. I suspect issues with humidity, cleaning procedures, or whatnot, so it's understandable that some people have problems while others don't.

celluloidpropaganda · Jan 17, 2006

Loading stainless reels with 35mm is too nerve-racking for me, I don't think I'm coordinated enough. Never had any real problems with Paterson, though.

120, OTOH, is too easy with SS to bother trying Paterson.

discotex · Jan 17, 2006

MattKing said:
If your hand motions naturally keep the sides parallel, then the plastic reels are more likely to work for you.

I totally agree.. I never had any problem with 24exp rolls but when I started bulk loading 35exp rolls I started to have problems.

The one thing I haven't seen mentioned is keeping your thumbs on the little tabs where the film enters the spool and keeping the tabs facing you - rather than on top etc.

That combined with clipping the corners made a huge difference loading 35exp rolls.

..Matt

Phillip P. Dimor · Jan 18, 2006

I ruined quite possibly the greatest roll of film i've ever shot with a Patterson reel. I smashed it to bits and ordered a Hewel ss reel. I don't use plastic at all anymore.
My only complaint is that steel tanks tend to leak more, or atleast mine do.
It doesn't bother me much anymore, I just deal with it.

35mm though, I need the Kindermann reels (never tried a Hewes 35mm).. Those cheap generic ones bend/warp and the clips suck. The Kindermann loader works every time too. Different strokes for different folks.

pnance · Jan 18, 2006

I learned to hate plastic when they were Yankee reels, they all work when new, but when wet or after many, many uses, USELESS.

Switched to SS in '63 and never looked back, I have loaded more reels in a changing bag, usually 4 35s in a qt tank, and now actually enjoy the experience because I finally have a dark room and don't have to use the sweaty changing bag anymore!

One of my practices with SS is not to use the inner clamp, it can hold the film in a crooked position. Just stick the end in the middle and wind from there.

On winding out of the cassette, bad idea!, use a church key to pop the cassette end off, cut the film end square and start winding.

Damaging a roll of film is the signal to switch from plastic to SS.

Paul

TheFlyingCamera · Jan 20, 2006

the Hewes reels, especially for 35mm, are THE BEST. The little loading teeth on the center spool make it virtually foolproof for starting the loading process, and then the rest is easy. I once tried some generic stainless reels, but they were so poorly made that they wrecked the rolls I processed in them, so they saw exactly one development cycle, and went straight in the trash. Never again will I use anything but the Hewes for 35mm or Hewes/Jobo for 120 ( I think Hewes makes the 120 stainless reels for Jobo).

gnashings · Jan 21, 2006

Quote from pnance:

"Damaging a roll of film is the signal to switch from plastic to SS."

Uhm... no. It just means you did something wrong.

Guys, I have to say... a lot of people seem to have the reaction equivalent to blaming a car for the accident you got into. My own experiences aside, looking at the posts its easy to see that all the reels work, and work well - some just prefer one kind to another. I have had absolutely no problems with the plastic reels. I have never tried SS, even though I meant to, simply because I don't see the point of changing something that works well, even for something that will work just as well.
All the info is here to make the patersons 100% painless:
-make sure they're dry (split them after use - they dry better and let you clean them more thoroughly)
-keep your thumbs over the entry/take-up slots or tabs or whatever you want to call them.
-rather than trimming 35mm film straight across, cut an arc (semi circle more less) or do what I do when I got fed up with trying to make round cuts: cut straight across and then trim the corners off at 45 degrees, try to miss the perforations.
-don't force anything, ever. if it binds a bit, relax and back off the tension. Then start over - it should be ok. Frankly, since I started trimmingthe corners, I never had to do that.

One more thing, since I don't load my own, I don't re-use the cassettes, I just take a can opener to both ends of the factory cassette. Then the metal pops open and the film comes out in my hand. I trim it, load it until the spool hits my thumbs, clip, a couple more turns and I am done. A 36 exp roll should not take more than 2-3 minutes in the dark from lights out to lights back on.

Of course, if I learned on SS reels, I'd probably find them just as nice to use -bottom line is, they all work. So either find the ones that work best foryou, or take the few minutes to figure out how the ones you have like to be treated.

Best of luck - and remember: relax, this is supposed to be fun!

Peter.

Dave Miller · Jan 21, 2006

Quote from gnashings

Best of luck - and remember: relax, this is supposed to be fun!

Wonderful advice Peter; but what a good rant we've all had.

eumenius · Jan 21, 2006

And if you are sorry about Paterson, to see the difference in full you should have tried an old Soviet tank - no matter which one, by the way I use Kaiser tank (identical to Paterson), I keep it dry and clean - and it works like magic for me, never wasted a single roll of film in it. SS should be okay, too - I never had an opportunity to have one.

Zhenya

srs5694 · Jan 21, 2006

gnashings said:
Quote from pnance:

"Damaging a roll of film is the signal to switch from plastic to SS."

Uhm... no. It just means you did something wrong.

[List of things to do right snipped.]

I've tried all the things you suggested (and others) and I still had problems with my plastic reels. Perhaps I was doing something wrong, but if so, I don't know what it was. My own suspicion is that the relative humidity in the room I was using for loading film (a bathroom at the time) caused binding, but it could be there's some other factor at work, like some subtle trick to cleaning the reels that some people do automatically and don't even think about but that others don't do.

That said, I do agree with the overall message that you (generic you, not you specifically, gnashings) should use whatever works best for you. If you have no problems with plastic but can't load SS, then use plastic. If, like me, plastic gives you sporadic problems but SS loads painlessly every time, then use SS.

Andy K · Jan 21, 2006

1. Before using reels ensure they are completely dry I do this by putting them on a radiator for half an hour prior to use and then working some kitchen paper round the channels.

2. Snip two 45 degree corners off the leading edge of the film to be inserted into the reel..

3. Keep a few old sachets of silica gel in your changing bag (if that is what you use) they will absorb any increased humidity from your sweating hands.

I do these things and have not had a roll of film stick for a long time.

Ps. When film has stuck it was invariably HP5+. I don't know why.

pnance · Jan 21, 2006

gnashings said:
Quote from pnance:

"Damaging a roll of film is the signal to switch from plastic to SS."

Uhm... no. It just means you did something wrong.

QUOTE]

No, I didn't do anything wrong except try to use a piece of junk, the reel never worked again, a test roll, in daylight, would not consistently go onto the reel. Solution: trash can! switched to SS (yes there was a learning curve, but the test roll helped me through it, after practicing in daylight a few times it becomes hard to misload a SS)

Remember: I'm discussing the Yankee plastic reels, which the Paterson seem to be copies of as they load the same way, including the little ball bearings, they were made of a crisper plastic then the Paterson.

Just went to check, I have 4 of the old agitator-thermometers from the Yankee tanks, so I went through 4 of them (at $3.95), before I decided one +$20 something SS tank (a 1 reel 35mm and 1 reel tank, Honeywell) wasn't overpriced.

johndeere · Jan 21, 2006

I can't load a SS reel to save my life. However I have used Patterson Reels for as long as twenty years. I have more than my fair share of reels that have turned yellow.

I keep them clean and dry and have never lost one roll of film. When there has been a problem it was user error such as have the sprocket holes exposed on the outside edge of where I cut off the leader.

SS is fine and I wish I could load them but the Patterson Reels have a great track record with me.

Mark Layne · Jan 21, 2006

Snip the corners of the film (35mm) and you will have no problem with dry Patterson reels.
If you really want a challenge try loading 127 film in any reel.
Mark

Bob F. · Jan 21, 2006

The Yankee brand reels were probably junk. The eight Paterson reels I use regularly are not junk and have never given me a problem - including the old ones that came with a junk-shop buy. Yankee brand products seem to be notorious for not working very well; I have read many complaints of their 4x5" daylight tanks too. More likely Yankee copied the Paterson design (badly) than vice-versa.

As has already been said, use whatever works for you.

Bob.

gnashings · Jan 22, 2006

pnance said:
No, I didn't do anything wrong except try to use a piece of junk, the reel never worked again, a test roll, in daylight, would not consistently go onto the reel. Solution: trash can! switched to SS (yes there was a learning curve, but the test roll helped me through it, after practicing in daylight a few times it becomes hard to misload a SS)

Remember: I'm discussing the Yankee plastic reels, which the Paterson seem to be copies of as they load the same way, including the little ball bearings, they were made of a crisper plastic then the Paterson.

Look, I don't want to start a war of words here - but I stick with my intitial assessment. Look at the list of folks who have no problems with plastic reels. Even if the reel was defective, its still technically your fault for not noticing that and trying to use defective eqipment. And by the sound of it, the most first hand experience with paterson reels you have is the :

"I'm discussing the Yankee plastic reels, which the Paterson seem to be copies of as they load the same way, including the little ball bearings, they were made of a crisper plastic then the Paterson."

This is all a lot like people who hate dogs becuase one bit them - guess what: you probably provoked, wether you knew it or not. And since I am hoping that in both the developing reel and dog example, we are the more intelligent party... the onus is on us to realize how and why - AND when its just not worth it.

Look, I am not saying that there is anything wrong with anyone who has problems with these reels. There are numerous things, photography related or not, that seem to work wonderfully for legions of people that I myself cannot get any results from. And guess what - Its MY fault, obviously.
But, my take on it is this: why rack my brain trying to figure out why and how, when there are a million and one alternatives that work just as well???
I just don't like the blanket statements based on one personal experience that has more to do with my (or your) butter fingers than anything else.

Don't shoot - its Sunday, Jan 22 and I am a Toronto Maple Leafs fan... that's my excuse for being cranky

Cheers,

Peter.

pnance · Jan 22, 2006

look Crank Peter (there's your signature), the first sign of not working, is not working. I only ruined film the first time, after that I know what was happening and worked around it (used a backup reel or stored the film in a can til one was available) til I switched to the SS. I have a Paterson tank, not had a reason to use it, which is why I know the difference between the plastic in the Paterson and Yankee tanks.

Maybe you shouldn't watch sports, makes you irritable.

Paul

Mongo · Jan 22, 2006

All I can add is that I have never had a successful load with stainless steel reels and 35mm (Hewes reels...I figured I shouldn't skimp) but I've never had a bad load with a plastic reel regardless of the heritage of the reel. I just cut the end square and go...no arcs or corner snips or other tricks.

With SS I end up with film touching, or jumping spirals (and I have tried so very hard to feel these problems with my hands, but never can). I've only once had a plastic reel bind on me, and then I just backed the film out and started again.

With 120 film, the exact opposite is true. I can load SS reels so easily that I can do it with my hands in a changing bag, carrying on a full conversation. The plastic reels have never worked for me regardless of what tricks I've tried.

So, different things work for different people. I have no doubt that my Hewes 35mm reels are great pieces of equipment. I've checked, and the sides are perfectly parallel. I've tried with and without using the little sprocket holders in the middle. But for 35mm, they just don't work for me. Not the reels fault, surely, but my fault. They work fine if I'm test-loading in the light, but never when I can't see 'em. The same limitations I have with plastic reels and 120 film. Definately all my fault, not the fault of the reels.

Plenty of people have made both types of reels work for them. If this stuff was fundamentally faulty, nobody would have luck with it. Just use what works for you. As long as the film gets developed, who cares?

Be well.
Dave

srs5694 · Jan 23, 2006

Mark Layne said:
Snip the corners of the film (35mm) and you will have no problem with dry Patterson reels.

That's way too strong a statement. I've snipped the corners of 35mm rolls and still had problems with them jamming on Paterson reels. I've seen this advice before, and it may well help, but it's not a silver bullet that'll fix all problems with Paterson reels.

My own opinion is that there are a lot of factors that affect one's ability to successfully use either plastic or stainless steel reels. These include the quality of the design and manufacture of the reel (tabs vs. clips on SS reels, for instance), the condition of the reel (bent, cracked, wet, gummed up with dried Photo Flo, etc.), environmental factors (relative humidity -- that's speculative, though), human condition (wet hands, dirty hands, etc.), human coordination and quirks (ability to attach film to a SS clip, for instance), and so on. Not all of these factors are easily adjusted. In the end, you should use whatever works for you.

titrisol · Jan 23, 2006

I think it's a matter of getting used to them.
I love those reels, and actually with age they become easier to load.
Always remember to bevel the corners, square corners tend to stick.
I got a few "easy-load" reels, the ones with the large "lip" and they make life even easier.

timeUnit said:
I like the paterson tanks. They're easy to fill and I'm pretty used to them. The reels work OK on 120 film and 24 exp 135 film. But with 36 exp 135 film it's just awful. I'd say that 25% of the times, my rolls get stuck or very difficult to insert. Today, a stuck film started a chain of events that ruined the film in the end. This does not happen often, but it makes me very mad. These were pictures of some importance to me.

Cut to the chase: are there stainless steel reels for paterson tanks? Where can I get them?

If not -- is it difficult to fill the stainless steel tanks? I don't want to fill the tank in the dark. Is anyone filling stainless tanks with the lights on? Are you compensating for the longer filling times?

Thank you, apuggers, for your advice!

P C Headland · Jan 23, 2006

I've had no problems with a SS 35mm reel. I leave the film in the can, cut the leader off square and then round the corners, hook the end of the film over the centre of the reel and start the roll (approx 1 turn). Then, into the changing bag (with some scissors) and roll the film onto the reel. My left hand winds the reel, the right holds the film cannister and guides the film, bowing the film slightly as it goes onto the reel. When the end of the film is reached, just snip it off next to the cannister. I've only done a few 35mm rolls, but all have gone on without problems, and I've had no scratches. This way I can start the process in daylight and check that the start is "done good".

The other option, if you still have problems with SS & plastic, is to try an Agfa Rondinax/Rondix or clone. Daylight loading and processing. But there are opportunities for cock-ups there too I suppose

Lee Shively · Jan 23, 2006

HaHa. This has got to be a subject with as much debate as whether or not to use a UV filter for lens protection!

I had used nothing but Paterson plastic when I went to work for a newspaper that used Kinderman reels. I hated having to clip the corners of the film to make it fit into the slots on those reels (especially when I had to do it in the dark) but they did load pretty easily. Then I went to work for a larger paper that used Nikor reels and off-brand Nikor copies, most of them slightly bent from being dropped numerous times by photographers in a hurry to process film on deadline. By necessity, I learned to load bent 35mm reels and make them work. That is a frustrating learning experience.

gnashings · Jan 23, 2006

pnance said:
...Maybe you shouldn't watch sports, makes you irritable.

Paul

That's probably a very astute bit of advice!

Cheers,

Peter.

how I hate paterson reels

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