how hazardous are these substances really ?

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2007

Dave Miller said:
My understanding is that with sensible handling none of the chemicals we use in our darkroom should present any hazard to health.

As an aside I recall that the selenium required by our bodies, and that used in toning are two different forms. Can anyone confirm, or refute that?:confused: It seems relevant least someone take a swig of the Kodak product as a diet supplement.

Amen to that Dave! With sensible handling and disposal, nothing presents a major hazard.

And, the selenium in toner is quite different in chemical form than that used in dietary supplements. IDK offhand the difference as I have not looked into it for years.

BTW, one of the major portions of my research in graduate school involved the use of selenium oxidations. So, I have used it by the pound as selenium oxide. It smells like garlic to me.

At Kodak, selenium is used in large quantity in chemical syntheses, but they take great precautions to prevent chemical spills and vapor leaks.

Selenium is a major dopant in computer chips. If you have a short in any electronic equipment and smell that characteristic garlic or 'electronic' odor, that probably contains some seleniium compound or other. And, I am not referring to the smell of burning insulation. That is different.

PE

Jordan · Nov 18, 2007

"The dose makes the poison" -- a statement first made in the 1600s, I think, and that still holds today for most substances (some hormone-like organic small molecules violate the rule). Selenium is indeed considered a "micronutrient" -- many otherwise toxic elements are too -- but IMO you can't use that fact to diminish the potential health risks of working with these kinds of substances.

In the case of selenium, the line between micronutrient benefit and risk for selenosis seems to be at 400 ug per day for adults (see http://dietary-supplements.info.nih.gov/factsheets/selenium.asp -- Table 4, about 2/3 of the way down the page) and about half that for children. That's less than half a mg of elemental Se, which I would estimate to be equivalent to maybe 2 mg of dried KRST.

PE did SeO2 oxidations as a grad student and survived unscathed because he handled it properly and was careful to avoid inhaling or ingesting the dust (i.e. didn't eat in his work area).

My $0.02 only.

JBrunner · Nov 18, 2007

Jordan said:
"The dose makes the poison" -- a statement first made in the 1600s, I think, and that still holds today for most substances (some hormone-like organic small molecules violate the rule). Selenium is indeed considered a "micronutrient" -- many otherwise toxic elements are too -- but IMO you can't use that fact to diminish the potential health risks of working with these kinds of substances.

Indeed. If you eat enough fresh green spinach, it will kill you.

FWIW- I always wear nitrile gloves in the darkroom, have good ventilation, and wear a mask when mixing powders. These measures are common sense. Some of the things in my darkroom are toxic, so I eliminate as much exposure as possible.

Common sense in personal protection, safe handling, responsible storage, and proper disposal of chemicals goes a long way, very much farther IMHO than worrying about the individual toxicity of a given compound. That said, it behooves one to know what one is handling, as well.

J

fhovie · Nov 18, 2007

Nitrile gloves - ebay? I think that is where I bought my last 3 boxes. They should be as easy to get as anything else on the the internet. They are not reusable. They are not as stretchy as latex but are a better barrier to smaller molecules. They also do not lead to a latex sensitivity that is common in people that wear a lot of latex gloves. you don't want to get that problem. Getting ones that fit right is more difficult than with latex - latex will fit to you, nitrile will not be as forgiving. If you get them too big, you will not have the tactile response you need and too small and they rip going on.

This whole thread is like discussing reloading ammunition, if you are careful and sober, it is very safe. If you are careless, the angels sing. In my darkroom there are chemicals that can produce amazingly toxic gases. There are chemicals that I can taste if they get on my skin. But with respect and care, they are safe and easy to work with. Gloves and a face mask for powders. None of them are so toxic that a drop on my skin will kill me. It is preventing the repeated and prolonged exposures that makes it safe. A drop splattered in the sink is not an event - Rinse like you would a drop of food coloring and you are good to go. No fear! Just respect and care.

bonk said:
I guess I will get some of those "nitrile gloves" you mentioned. Is there anything to watch out for or do I just google "nitrile gloves" and buy what I find? I mainly find those medical ones. Can I use them for everything else in the darkroom as well? Can I wash and reuse them?

BrianShaw · Nov 18, 2007

"Symptoms of selenosis include a garlic odour on the breath, gastrointestinal disorders, hair loss, sloughing of nails, fatigue, irritability and neurological damage."

And all this time my wife thought it was just my natural personality. I'll have to let her know it is the toner that makes me like this.

JBrunner · Nov 18, 2007

I get my nitrile gloves at a home medical supply. They are quite used to photographers, mechanics, hobbyists ,and other non medical persons coming in to purchase the gloves.

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2007

Unfortunately, during a workup I had an accidental spill of selenium oxide in dimethyl sulfoxide. Jordan will recognize the danger of that combination.

It did penetrate the skin and I could taste garlic and oysters for a day.

But, I still have my hair and the only time I taste garlic is when I eat it. Any hair loss is due to old age, as is irritability which comes with old age I guess. I am tired due to old age, but was noted for being a very energetic person all of my life. So there! Even a somewhat radical exposure to selenium can (note that can) be survivable. I have problems with health just as the older of us do, but nothing can be traced to photography.

My problems stem mainly from the stress of working for 32 years at EK.

PE

Monophoto · Nov 18, 2007

JBrunner said:
Indeed. If you eat enough fresh green spinach, it will kill you.

FWIW- I always wear nitrile gloves in the darkroom, have good ventilation, and wear a mask - - -

So, do wearing nitrile gloves, having good ventilation, and wearing a mask protect you when you eat spinach?

JBrunner · Nov 18, 2007

Monophoto said:
So, do wearing nitrile gloves, having good ventilation, and wearing a mask protect you when you eat spinach?

I usually don't eat my darkroom supplies (well there was the "incident") , but I do like spinach, and how in the world could I shovel spinach down my pie hole with a mask on?!!

CBG · Nov 18, 2007

It's a new world. Back when I first did darkroom work, some three decades ago, I thought that folks using tongs were being way too careful and I didn't put it that politely.

I'm going to build a new darkroom to get back into darkroom work, and I'll be wearing gloves for the scary stuff - and using tongs for a lot of the work with paper.

tim rudman · Nov 18, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Originally Posted by tim rudman
I didn't write this book PE. Did you mean Gordon Hutchings?
Tim

Apologies to Tim, yes it was Gordon Hutchings. And IDK how I did that as his (Gordon's) book and A&T were sitting side by side next to me as I wrote that!
So sorry for the error.
PE

No problem PE. Stuff happens
Incidentally, although that accreditation which incorrect, I did in fact write up a section on selenium and toxicity in The Toning Book.
I quite agree with you, and with Martin Reed's post (it would have been Guy's Hospital Martin), - there is no risk in practice, given the basic information, simple precautions and a dose of common sense. I don't understand the paranoia that some centres seem to have about selenium. I have encountered some photo centres that don't allow it in the building, which IMHO is silly.

Tim

Kvistgaard · Nov 18, 2007

bonk said:
For each of the mentioned chemicals Is it ok to

work without gloves

inhale their perspirations (work without mask)

spill the used chemicals into the toilet

spill the used chemicals into the kitchen sink

generally use them in a kitchen (no matter how careful I am, I am sure some drops of the chemicals end up at places where food or dishes will be later, especially near the sink)

Don't forget that toning does not require the darkness of a, well, darkroom - you can just as well go outside to do the toning work.

As for flushing used chemicals (photo or general household) down the drain or toilet: Where I live (Denmark), that is an absolute no-no.

srs5694 · Nov 18, 2007

fhovie said:
Nitrile gloves - ebay? I think that is where I bought my last 3 boxes. They should be as easy to get as anything else on the the internet. They are not reusable.

I've seen reusable nitrile gloves sold for general household cleaning. In this form, they're similar to the latex or rubber gloves that are found near many kitchen sinks. They're thicker than the disposable variety, and for this reason they diminish the tactile senses more and so might not be as well-liked for many purposes as the thinner disposable variety.

john_s · Nov 18, 2007

Blue nitrile gloves are available at my local (not very good) supermarket, so I would think that they would be easily available.

Gim · Nov 18, 2007

I use green, powder free, "Ansell Touch N Tuff" disposable Nitrile gloves from W W Grainger. I get a fairly close fit glove and can shuffel 8 sheet films in a tray with no problem. $12-13 bucks for a box of 100.
www.ansell.com
Jim

pentaxuser · Nov 18, 2007

I think the anti-dandruff shampoo in the U.K. in the 60s was called Selsun. Anyone remember it? Expensive but worked a treat. How about washing my hair in Selenium? Boy, do I need to increase it's Dmax. These days it's all highlight and no shadows.

pentaxuser

JBrunner · Nov 18, 2007

pentaxuser said:
I think the anti-dandruff shampoo in the U.K. in the 60s was called Selsun. Anyone remember it? Expensive but worked a treat. How about washing my hair in Selenium? Boy, do I need to increase it's Dmax. These days it's all highlight and no shadows.

pentaxuser

Selson Blue?- still available over here. The last thing I need is anything that will further thicken my head...

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2007

It contained a selenium sulfide compound. Thus the name selsun.

PE

thomsonrc · Nov 18, 2007

Outside?

Kvistgaard said:
Don't forget that toning does not require the darkness of a, well, darkroom - you can just as well go outside to do the toning work.
As for flushing used chemicals (photo or general household) down the drain or toilet: Where I live (Denmark), that is an absolute no-no.

Outside? Only if you want to add interesting textures to your prints such as kamakaze flies, blossom, leaves, snow - depending on the season.

Ritchie

dancqu · Nov 18, 2007

bonk said:
- TMAX fixer
- Ilford Iflostop

Especially the selenium toner
and the fixer smell very...unhealthy.

I think it is the SO2 produced by an acid
fix which irritates. Asthmatics I believe are at
risk in it's presence. Neutral to alkaline fixers
are no problem although if of the ammonium
type do smell so. A neutral to alkaline fix
made with Sodium thiosulfate presents
no problems. Dan

walter23 · Nov 18, 2007

Tom Hoskinson said:
“Pyrogallic acid is toxic but one must be careful in interpreting MSDS: mostly they are written for industrial users of substances who use and store them in very large quantity.

This is terrible advice. An MSDS is just as valid for casual, low scale users, or chemical laboratories using small quantities, as it is for large scale industrial operations. In fact, an MSDS tells you just how relevant it is for low scale use vs. large scale use by virtue of the information on toxicity, acceptable exposure levels, reactivities, and the likes. It's full of very useful information.

For example, using a couple of random example compounds: something like KCN (potassium cyanide) is very toxic (a gram or so can kill you if ingested), irritating, liberates toxic cyanide gas if heated or reacted with certain subjestances, etc. Potassium dichromate (a more relevant example for photographers) is acutely toxic and will give you cancer with repeated exposure to small amounts. These are all properties that would be relevant to you whether you've got 1 gram of it sitting in a bottle on your desk or a 10 ton vat of it sitting in a large scale industrial facility, and this information is all available in the appropriate MSDS.

walter23 · Nov 18, 2007

pentaxuser said:
I think the anti-dandruff shampoo in the U.K. in the 60s was called Selsun. Anyone remember it? Expensive but worked a treat. How about washing my hair in Selenium? Boy, do I need to increase it's Dmax. These days it's all highlight and no shadows.

pentaxuser

Selenium sulphide. I've used it myself (in more concentrated form, to treat a mild skin condition).

The issue here is whether or not the complex is a toxic form & whether or not the quantities are enough to be toxic. Obviously the selsun lotion / shampoo is relatively safe, but it's not the same as selenium toner in either concentration or other ingredients and possibly oxidation state of the selenium itself.

BobbyR · Nov 18, 2007

IF you are a gent, or lady, who has genuine fear before even starting, do something else, you will hurt yourself.

If you are a gent or lady, who is fearless, read some informative articles and give all its due respect.
Stupidity has just rewards.

If you are a gent or lady who is immune to damn near any thing, still let wisdom rule, but praise the lord, and give her hell.

If you are a gent or lady, who is allergic, or subject to severe reactions to damn near anything, you can live a short full life or a long boring one. The choice is yours.

In between the extremes is the majority of the populace, use your brain, and remember you have nothing to fear but fear itself.

Bobby

srs5694 · Nov 18, 2007

walter23 said:
This is terrible advice. An MSDS is just as valid for casual, low scale users, or chemical laboratories using small quantities, as it is for large scale industrial operations. In fact, an MSDS tells you just how relevant it is for low scale use vs. large scale use by virtue of the information on toxicity, acceptable exposure levels, reactivities, and the likes. It's full of very useful information.

I've examined several MSDSes, and I've got a couple of complaints about them, as a class:

Two organizations can put out different MSDSes for the same compound, and the two MSDSes can contain radically different information. This makes it difficult to correlate risks between different compounds if the MSDSes come from different sources -- if one source is more complete/alarmist than the other, you might come to mistaken ideas about the relative risks of the two compounds.
Some MSDSes are downright alarmist. I once did a Web search on MSDSes for water, just out of curiosity. Some were fairly reasonable, but I found one that was so complete in its listing of risks that it was almost as ridiculous as the joke DHMO sites. (Note for the uninitiated: DHMO is dihydrogen monoxide, aka water.) I didn't happen to save that particular MSDS or its URL, but it made water sound like pretty dangerous stuff. To the extent that other MSDSes are written in similar style, the result is likely to be unhelpful paranoia about specific chemicals and about chemicals in general.

This is not to say that MSDSes should not be consulted, but these facts can make them difficult to interpret, particularly if you don't already know enough about the substance in question to not need the MSDS. So by all means, read them, but if something you read in an MSDS concerns you, research it some more; don't ban the substance from your darkroom or buy a hazmat suit or something.

Photo Engineer · Nov 18, 2007

That is why the LD50 in rats, mice and rabbits is somewhat useful and is what I use from the Merck index.

PE

how hazardous are these substances really ?

Photo Engineer

Jordan

JBrunner

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fhovie

BrianShaw

JBrunner

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Photo Engineer

Monophoto

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CBG

tim rudman

Kvistgaard

srs5694

john_s

Gim

pentaxuser

JBrunner

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Photo Engineer

thomsonrc

dancqu

walter23

walter23

BobbyR

srs5694

Photo Engineer

how hazardous are these substances really ?

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