how hard is it really to do RA4 printing at home?

Roger Cole · Jun 27, 2012

DREW WILEY said:
Roger - I can't pin down the irritant in RA4. It's nothing corrossive like Ciba bleach, so doesn't give itself away by odor. I know a number of lab owners and their employees who got sensitized to RA4
and couldn't be around it. I can work with it for about a week and then all of a sudden only tiny
amts of the odor will irritate my resp system and make me very susceptible to cold virus etc. So I
opt just to do the actual chem mixing and dev outdoors during mild weather (to keep temp variables
within tolerance inside the drum). But ventilation is important even with much milder b&w chem.

My darkroom in TN was pretty well ventilated. Here and now - eh, well, I hung black plastic around the area of the basement I use and over the ceiling joists, mostly to prevent too much movement of too much dust into it from outside and dust falling from the ceiling, but it also cuts down on any light that leaks in from the blacked out windows and I can print in the daytime, or even with the stairwell light on at the other end of the basement. It can't be very air restrictive - I notice no problems with black and white. I do use brown toner outside that area, though, both for the smell and for the fact the fumes can fog paper or so I seem to recall reading.

The RA4AT stuff was, I think, more concentrated than regular RA4. Working with it for a couple of hours even in good ventilation would give me a sore throat for a day or two. After the change of stop and change to the printpod it wasn't too bad.

SkipA · Jul 2, 2012

I did a little RA-4 printing about 10 years ago in drums using my Jobo CPP-2. I found it slow and tedious for 8x10 to 11x14 prints, but that is mostly because it took me several tests to get the color and density where I wanted it. I could have proofed in trays, but it didn't occur to me.

I never printed larger than 11x14, but I am sure that a Jobo drum would be easier and more economical in terms of chemistry used than developing in trays for 16x20 and up, at least in my darkroom. My sink will fit four 16x20 trays, but only three 20x24.

I've almost got my Fujimoto CP-31 up and running. That will simplify my process, but I'll be limited to a maximum of 12x16 prints. For anything bigger than that, I will use my Jobo. It won't be that painful because I'll be able to proof smaller test prints in the CP-31.

nworth · Jul 2, 2012

Making your first really good RA-4 print is a terrible, frustrating experience. But eventually you will get the color balance right and the workflow correct. After that, it is very easy as long as you keep doing it. Go away from it for a couple of months though and you have to endure the torture again.

hrst · Jul 2, 2012

I have never had such a problem.

Maybe making notes would help you.

I didn't make notes and it took some time before I started remembering the base filtration without writing it down. It took some time to notice that my filtration for "typically" exposed (natural light) images and neutral look is always the same! Just as it should be. You are much easier off if you take a piece of paper and write these two magical numbers down.

For those who are lucky enough to have an enlarger with STANDARD filter scales can read these magical numbers directly from the paper package. ... it's not too difficult.

Roger Cole · Jul 2, 2012

SkipA said:
I did a little RA-4 printing about 10 years ago in drums using my Jobo CPP-2. I found it slow and tedious for 8x10 to 11x14 prints, but that is mostly because it took me several tests to get the color and density where I wanted it. I could have proofed in trays, but it didn't occur to me.

I never printed larger than 11x14, but I am sure that a Jobo drum would be easier and more economical in terms of chemistry used than developing in trays for 16x20 and up, at least in my darkroom. My sink will fit four 16x20 trays, but only three 20x24.

I've almost got my Fujimoto CP-31 up and running. That will simplify my process, but I'll be limited to a maximum of 12x16 prints. For anything bigger than that, I will use my Jobo. It won't be that painful because I'll be able to proof smaller test prints in the CP-31.

That's basically what I plan to do - use trays for smaller prints, move to the drums for the occasional larger ones after proofing in trays. My CPE2 I think won't do larger than 11x14 anyway but I'm sure I can find a manual 16x20 drum.

pinholer · Jul 3, 2012

I started making color prints back in the CP5 days using a waterbath to maintain the temperature. I found out that, in the summer, it raised the humidity level in the darkroom to oppressive levels. When the motor bases and drums came out I converted to them and never looked back. I kept the chemicals in a dishpan with a aquarium heater to maintain temperature. One day I decided to experiment a little and see if I could process at room temperature. After some trial and error and making the same print at both the specified temperature and room temperature I found that if I developed at room temperature for 10 minutes (less 35 seconds per degree above 70 degrees) I couldn't tell the difference. I didn't like wasting the 10 minutes watching the motor base rotate the drum so I got anther 8x10 drum and another 11x14 drum. Now I could expose a second print and put it in its drum while the first one was developing.
I went merrily along through the various chemistries and papers until Kodak came out with RA4. Finances were good so I got a Jobo CPA and two drums and continued processing with that setup.
I mix chemicals as I need them from stock usually making 500 ml of developer and bleach fix. I make an acetic acid stop up a gallon at a time and use that. After the print has washed and is on the drying rack I rinse out the drum, dry it out with a towel, and expose the next drum load of paper. By then the drum is completely dry and the process repeats itself.

I haven't made a test print per se in years. As mentiioned earlier, once you get the filter pack down it doesn't change much from roll to roll of the same type of film or batch of paper. This means that I can "standardize" on a contact printing exposure (enlarger height, aperture, filter pack, exposure time) and use the resulting contact print to see if there are any changes due to negative density. Now I did spend a day in the dark seeing how Supra Endura exposure times changed with enlarger height for my equipment. I put that information into a spreadsheet so all I do is look up the enlarger height and refer to the spreadsheet for the aperture and exposure time. Then if my contact sheet tells me that I need a half stop more exposure I make that correction and expose the print. Just my way of doing things. As always YMMV.

mikecnichols · Jul 6, 2012

Question for RA4. I made a print as an 8x10 tonight. I would like to print as an 11x14. Will the settings & filter pack change if the paper is the same and the lens is the same?

RichardH · Jul 6, 2012

mikecnichols said:
Question for RA4. I made a print as an 8x10 tonight. I would like to print as an 11x14. Will the settings & filter pack change if the paper is the same and the lens is the same?

Mike, if the paper is the same emulsion, same brand name, you shouldn't have to change filtration. If it is 11x14 from another box, you will probably have to change filters. If all is the same, then the only thing you will need to do is open the lense up a little. Don't change exposure time. That will change colors a little.
PM me if I can help on that end. I printed for years with cut paper in the 80's when I had a studio.

Richard

jayvo86 · Jul 8, 2012

RichardH said:
Mike, if the paper is the same emulsion, same brand name, you shouldn't have to change filtration. If it is 11x14 from another box, you will probably have to change filters. If all is the same, then the only thing you will need to do is open the lense up a little. Don't change exposure time. That will change colors a little.
PM me if I can help on that end. I printed for years with cut paper in the 80's when I had a studio.

Richard

I've done plenty of dodging and burning along with doubling the exposure needed without any noticeable color shift.

Of course, that has just been my experience.

I process room temp on FCA deved in RA4.

RichardH · Jul 8, 2012

jayvo86 said:
I've done plenty of dodging and burning along with doubling the exposure needed without any noticeable color shift.

Of course, that has just been my experience.

I process room temp on FCA deved in RA4.

Hey jayvo86
I am just curious and being a little nosy, what is your standard printing time for a 8x10. I am just starting to print color again from a LONG, LONG layoff from it and was just wondering what most others time is? Back when I was printing production set up, I was using 6 seconds as a standard. Now that paper and chemicals have changed, I am looking at 7 sec. with a f11 as starting point. I am thinking maybe going to about 10 sec. with f stop adjustment. If you are dodging, it seems, in my setup, that I would have to be pretty fast in trying to dodge something. Just curious, thats all. Asking questions is my way of learning a lot about things. Like I said, just curious.

Back in the 80's, a standard time was what Kodak was recommending and I was using a densitometer also. With less exposure, it would go cyan, more exposure would go red. I am not familiar yet with the new emulsions and such that is out now. I think I need to make some serious test with what is avaliable now. Things and ways of doing things change over time, so I need to ask questions and experiment.

I am also room temp with the Fuji Super type ll.

Thanks

Richard

thefizz · Jul 8, 2012

E76 said:
It's very easy! While a temperature controlled bath is the way to go, I've processed RA-4 in trays at room temperature using Kodak Supra Endura and Ektacolor RA-RT chemistry. It takes two minutes to develop a sheet at room temperaturenot tens of minutesand I had great results. (This method was recommended by PE in several threads.) I'm not sure if the same can be done with the Fuji Crystal Archive but it's worth a shot.

The Kodak chems work fine with Fuji Crystal Archve paper.

jayvo86 · Jul 9, 2012

RichardH said:
Hey jayvo86
I am just curious and being a little nosy, what is your standard printing time for a 8x10. I am just starting to print color again from a LONG, LONG layoff from it and was just wondering what most others time is? Back when I was printing production set up, I was using 6 seconds as a standard. Now that paper and chemicals have changed, I am looking at 7 sec. with a f11 as starting point. I am thinking maybe going to about 10 sec. with f stop adjustment. If you are dodging, it seems, in my setup, that I would have to be pretty fast in trying to dodge something. Just curious, thats all. Asking questions is my way of learning a lot about things. Like I said, just curious.

Back in the 80's, a standard time was what Kodak was recommending and I was using a densitometer also. With less exposure, it would go cyan, more exposure would go red. I am not familiar yet with the new emulsions and such that is out now. I think I need to make some serious test with what is avaliable now. Things and ways of doing things change over time, so I need to ask questions and experiment.

I am also room temp with the Fuji Super type ll.

Thanks

Richard

With the Chromega I'm using, Exposure is 12-14 seconds at F8. (For standard crop.) I did a tighter crop from one of 35mm negs and had to do about 24 seconds.

I usually run my test trips with a 4-5 second spacing.

jayvo86 · Jul 9, 2012

You can also see my results in my gallery. The tight crop of the female singing was about 24 seconds, while the others were around 12-14 seconds. The photo of the girl with the keytar has burning done to the right side of the photo.

kmallick · Jul 11, 2012

This all sounds great and I am definitely planning to try. However one thing I am scared about tray processing is no safelight thing. I have a small bathroom turned darkroom. I tried last evening and I am not sure if I can see the trays with no lights at all. Any advice? Should I try with processing in a tube first?

SkipA · Jul 11, 2012

If you can see the trays, then it's not dark enough. You do it by feel. Lay everything out so that minimal movement is required. That shouldn't be too hard in a small bathroom. Then feel for the first tray or something that'll lead you to it. From there, it's just a matter of moving from tray to tray, which should all be lined up in a row.

thefizz · Jul 11, 2012

The colour safe torch from RH Designs is what you need.

Roger Cole · Jul 11, 2012

SkipA said:
If you can see the trays, then it's not dark enough. You do it by feel. Lay everything out so that minimal movement is required. That shouldn't be too hard in a small bathroom. Then feel for the first tray or something that'll lead you to it. From there, it's just a matter of moving from tray to tray, which should all be lined up in a row.

Just plain wrong, but you MUST use the RIGHT safelight. I can see my trays just fine with my Duka set for RA4. It's almost as bright as a Kodak (very conservative) OC filter for BW is. With the Kodak #13 masked enough to be safe or far enough away you should definitely still be able to at least make out the outlines of trays etc - very helpful.

SkipA · Jul 11, 2012

In the J39 publication, Kodak says

DARKROOM RECOMMENDATIONS
Handle unprocessed papers and materials in total darkness.
Be sure that your darkroom is lighttight. Eliminate stray
light from enlarger heads, timers, LEDs, etc.

Note: Using a safelight will affect your results. If absolutely
necessary, you can use a safelight equipped with a
KODAK 13 Safelight Filter (amber) and a 71⁄ 2 -watt bulb.
Keep the safelight at least 1.2 metres (4 feet) from the paper
or material. Run tests to determine that safelight use gives
acceptable results for your application.

So, I prefer to process in total darkness.

kmallick · Jul 11, 2012

Roger Cole said:
Just plain wrong, but you MUST use the RIGHT safelight. I can see my trays just fine with my Duka set for RA4. It's almost as bright as a Kodak (very conservative) OC filter for BW is. With the Kodak #13 masked enough to be safe or far enough away you should definitely still be able to at least make out the outlines of trays etc - very helpful.

I think I am slowly getting out of darkness about RA4 printing.
But what is DUKA light and are these even available for purchase these days?

I am currently using red LED lights for my B&W wet printing. I might try a fog test when doing RA4 printing.

PhotoJim · Jul 11, 2012

kmallick said:
I am currently using red LED lights for my B&W wet printing. I might try a fog test when doing RA4 printing.

You'll get bad fog. No need to try it, really. Colour paper is definitely sensitive to red light.

kmallick · Jul 11, 2012

PhotoJim said:
You'll get bad fog. No need to try it, really. Colour paper is definitely sensitive to red light.

drats! ok I hear you. I guess I have to try groping in the dark. RA4 doesn't feel that exciting anymore for me, honestly especially comparing against inkjet printing. B&W wet print is a different story of course.

MattKing · Jul 11, 2012

Jim is correct.

You would need an LED that emits light only in the narrow spectrum that a Kodak #13 filter transmits - and a fairly dim one at that.

If you are comfortable reading graphs, take a look at the graph associated with the #13 filter in this Kodak publication (it is on page 16 of the pdf). In particular, compare how little it transmits when compared with other filters: http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/ti0845/ti0845.pdf

MattKing · Jul 11, 2012

kmallick said:
drats! ok I hear you. I guess I have to try groping in the dark. RA4 doesn't feel that exciting anymore for me, honestly especially comparing against inkjet printing. B&W wet print is a different story of course.

You will be amazed at how easy it is to do this in the dark. And if not, you can always use tubes.

kmallick · Jul 11, 2012

MattKing said:
You will be amazed at how easy it is to do this in the dark. And if not, you can always use tubes.

Thanks for the encouragement. I am definitely going to give it a try.

A couple of more questions. I would prefer to do the development at temperature. Maintaining the trays at temperatures of ~100F can be a problem for my setup. It is easier of course to maintain the tube at temperature since I have a small temperature control bath. I would like to hear suggestions on how you guys do tray processing at higher temperatures.

What about cleaning and wiping the tubes between developing?

MattKing · Jul 11, 2012

On the tube question ...

I have multiple (4+) sets of tubes.

I rinse thoroughly, wipe them down with a towel, and then allow them to air dry to "completeness" while I use the next 3 tubes.

Many here report success developing RA4 at room temperature.

how hard is it really to do RA4 printing at home?

Roger Cole

SkipA

nworth

hrst

Roger Cole

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mikecnichols

RichardH

jayvo86

RichardH

thefizz

jayvo86

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SkipA

thefizz

Roger Cole

SkipA

kmallick

PhotoJim

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