How get really grainy and contrasty prints from medium format?

Tomren · Oct 6, 2020

Hi,

my first post here and I am immediately asking for advice

I use medium format film (and film in general) for 1 year and over time I began to like photos with a strong grain and contrast. This is not a problem with postprocessing on a computer, but now I have access to darkroom and I don't know how to do it there.

I use mainly 6x7 camera, HP5/Foma 400 and FP4/Foma 100, Rodinal. In darkroom RC papers from Foma (fixed gradation (multigrade is planned) and Adox neutol. Size from 8x10 to 12x16.
I can make print with heavy contrast, but grain is still far from what I would like.

A photographer Toby Deveson, for example, can serve as an example of what I would like to achieve:
http://www.tobydeveson.com/portfolio-category/landscape/page/86/
I know he uses 35mm film (TMAX400) and print in darkroom (Foma FB papers, Agfa Neutol)

Is there any way to achieve such prints? Or it will be easier to get a 35mm camera?

Thank you for any advice and help.
Tobias

Paul Howell · Oct 6, 2020

I would go with Delta 3200, shot at 3200 developed in non solvent type developer, Rodinal at 1:25 or the exteam Delta 3200 at 6400. Some develop in a paper developer like Dektol.

BradS · Oct 6, 2020

over expose and over develop...

and welcome to APUG.

pentaxuser · Oct 6, 2020

The Tmax negative that has been printed in a darkroom with Agfa Neutol is a bit of a puzzle to me in terms of apparent grain. Toby Deveson says that he prints full frame so presumably what we are looking at is not a crop from a very big enlargement which might explain it. His other pictures do not seem to be like the linked picture so what has changed? It's a puzzle to me

Paul has given some good advice and what Paul suggests may give you what you want but if I were you I'd ask Toby Deveson what he did to get the look he has on that linked picture, given the film and no cropping of the negative.

pentaxuser

MattKing · Oct 6, 2020

Welcome to Photrio.
Toby Deveson may be using a lith printing workflow to get that affect.

Tomren · Oct 6, 2020

Thanks for the anwers. Delta 3200is quite expensive but I can try.

I was at the Michael Kenna show and I really like pronounced grain on some of his prints. And they are small, from 6x6 Trix.

There is sure a lot of work ahead of me in the darkroom...

removed account4 · Oct 6, 2020

BradS said:
over expose and over develop...

and welcome to APUG.

+1
I have also gotten sweet grain out of tmax400+100 by overexposing ( like 4 stops ) and processing in caffenol c with a splash of print developer in there (ansco130 or dektol). depending on how you agitate and the strength of your developer your film may be bullet proof but other times so you might need a bright bulb, or contact print the negatives on photo paper in the sun for a few hours and scan that as-is without processing the paper.

Paul Howell said:
Some develop in a paper developer like Dektol

from experience using dektol ( d72 ) and ansco 130 for film ( for about 20 years ) .. I've never gotten excessive grain but these paper developers will. give you lots of contrast if you are not careful how you agitate.

have fun !
john

Maris · Oct 6, 2020

Use fast film, conventional not T-grain.
Over-expose, over-develop film then over-enlarge on contrasty paper.
Remember the grain you see in the positive is a map of the spaces between the grains of the negative.

pentaxuser · Oct 6, 2020

Tomren, Matt may well be right about lith printing. The problem is that Toby Deveson actually says very little if anything about how he achieves his prints which is a pity as it can lead people to believe that somehow TMax negatives and Agfa Neutol can deliver the print you have linked to. He may not do it deliberately but by saying nothing about each print and only mentioning the film and paper developer it allows people to "fill in the blank spaces" and come to the wrong conclusions

If it is TMax as he says and a normal print with Agfa Neutol then I would really like to hear how he did it.

pentaxuser

Huss · Oct 6, 2020

Delta 3200 is super grainy if shot at ISO 1000 and developed as an ISO 1000 film. (the spec sheet says that this is its true rating). Both pics used DF96 Monobath as developer.

However, if you shoot it at ISO 1000, and dev it for 3200, the grain becomes very fine:

Nikon F3 Ltd, Zeiss 50 1.4, Ilford Delta 3200

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 7, 2020

pentaxuser said:
The Tmax negative that has been printed in a darkroom with Agfa Neutol is a bit of a puzzle to me in terms of apparent grain. Toby Deveson says that he prints full frame so presumably what we are looking at is not a crop from a very big enlargement which might explain it. His other pictures do not seem to be like the linked picture so what has changed? It's a puzzle to me

Paul has given some good advice and what Paul suggests may give you what you want but if I were you I'd ask Toby Deveson what he did to get the look he has on that linked picture, given the film and no cropping of the negative.

pentaxuser

http://www.tobydeveson.com/equipment-and-materials-used-the-chemicals/

"I shake the film in the chemicals vigorously for the first minute or so, then for about thirty seconds every minute after that. The more vigorous you are the greater the contrast and grain in the film."

pentaxuser · Oct 7, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
http://www.tobydeveson.com/equipment-and-materials-used-the-chemicals/

"I shake the film in the chemicals vigorously for the first minute or so, then for about thirty seconds every minute after that. The more vigorous you are the greater the contrast and grain in the film."

I couldn't find any reference to which developer chemicals he is using but can vigorous shaking alone even for as much as half the development time really do this with TMax?

Is there something about vigorous shaking that makes it different from say normal agitation or what is continuous agitation such as a rotary processor gives. It was my understanding that rotary agitation can, if done for the same time as inversion agitation, overdevelop the negatives but not increase the grain such as has been achieved in the picture to which the OP gave a link

pentaxuser

R.Gould · Oct 7, 2020

Try using print developer for developing your film, gives very nice grain with MF,

radiant · Oct 7, 2020

Foma 400, expose at 180-200
Rodinal 1+25, 25 celcius, 30 seconds agitation for 8-9 minutes
Print at grade 5 (you need to expose low contrast scenes = low SBR)

This way you have visible grain even on 5x7" contact print.

Tomren said:
I know he uses 35mm film (TMAX400)

Are you sure? I feel like Tmax is the most difficult film to get grain

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 7, 2020

pentaxuser said:
I couldn't find any reference to which developer chemicals he is using

You probably didn't bother to read the page whose link I shared in my earlier post.

http://www.tobydeveson.com/equipment-and-materials-used-the-chemicals/

"I chose HC-110 to develop my film because it was apparently slightly more forgiving and flexible, increased the contrast slightly and also the grain."

"I tend to use mine at between 21° and 23° centigrade and keep it in for about eight minutes, depending on the nature of the photographs"

"The paper developer, Agfa Neutol WA, is known for encouraging the warm tones in the papers which is something I like, so for me it was a simple choice. The main three papers I use or have used (Agfa Record Rapid, Kodak Ektalure and Fomatone 532-II) are all warm toned and are well suited to Neutol."

pentaxuser · Oct 7, 2020

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:
You probably didn't bother to read the page whose link I shared in my earlier post.

http://www.tobydeveson.com/equipment-and-materials-used-the-chemicals/

"I chose HC-110 to develop my film because it was apparently slightly more forgiving and flexible, increased the contrast slightly and also the grain."

"I tend to use mine at between 21° and 23° centigrade and keep it in for about eight minutes, depending on the nature of the photographs"

"The paper developer, Agfa Neutol WA, is known for encouraging the warm tones in the papers which is something I like, so for me it was a simple choice. The main three papers I use or have used (Agfa Record Rapid, Kodak Ektalure and Fomatone 532-II) are all warm toned and are well suited to Neutol."

Thanks for that. So he develops Tmax using HC110 at between 21-23 C but vigorously shakes it for four minutes out of the eight minutes that he uses it. So a developer not known for increasing grain, as far as I am aware, and being used within the normal range of temperature.

Unless I have missed listing a cause for this grain in the picture it would appear to be due to the vigorous shaking alone. Maybe others who use Tmax or similar Tgrain type of film with HC110 can comment. It just seems to create grain that seems strange given what we now know about his film, his developer and temperature range

pentaxuser

Ko.Fe. · Oct 7, 2020

Develop in lith developer. Arista makes one. Not expensive.
Print with high contrast filter.

koraks · Oct 7, 2020

Tomren said:
I use mainly 6x7 camera

For what you want to achieve, my first response would be: go back to 35mm. You want big grain, so it helps if you enlarge more, and that means using a smaller format. The beauty of medium format and upwards is how smooth the images will be, even with faster film. But in your particular case, that's a drawback instead of an advantage.

Otherwise you're on the right track with Fomapan 400; Rollei RPX400 would be good too, HP5+ a little less so because it's a bit more fine-grained (not all that much difference with RPX400 though). Most importantly: develop the HECK out of it. Rodinal is a good choice for what you're doing. Shoot under flat light, and develop for let's say twice as long as the datasheets/massive dev chart says. That'll give you a fairly OK starting point.

But stepping down to 35mm is really the biggest 'improvement' you can make in this case.

warden · Oct 7, 2020

Tomren said:
Hi,

my first post here and I am immediately asking for advice

I use medium format film (and film in general) for 1 year and over time I began to like photos with a strong grain and contrast. This is not a problem with postprocessing on a computer, but now I have access to darkroom and I don't know how to do it there.

I use mainly 6x7 camera, HP5/Foma 400 and FP4/Foma 100, Rodinal. In darkroom RC papers from Foma (fixed gradation (multigrade is planned) and Adox neutol. Size from 8x10 to 12x16.
I can make print with heavy contrast, but grain is still far from what I would like.

A photographer Toby Deveson, for example, can serve as an example of what I would like to achieve:
http://www.tobydeveson.com/portfolio-category/landscape/page/86/
I know he uses 35mm film (TMAX400) and print in darkroom (Foma FB papers, Agfa Neutol)

Is there any way to achieve such prints? Or it will be easier to get a 35mm camera?

Thank you for any advice and help.
Tobias

If I were after that effect I would use 35mm and Kodak P3200 film. That would provide some grain but perhaps not as much as Toby Deveson is showing with TMax400. Deveson's prints are the grainiest prints from TMax I've seen.

Raghu Kuvempunagar · Oct 7, 2020

@Tomren: maybe you can try mimicking Toby's method in 120 format using same film, film developer, agitation, temperature, time, paper, paper developer, etc, see what results you get and then decide.

pentaxuser · Oct 7, 2020

Great suggestion, Raghu. I would be very interested in seeing the results. As others have said 35mm, fast film such as D3200 appears to be the way to go. Beside Huss's shot there is right now a picture by PentaxPete with outdated D3200 that shows pretty clear grain. The print is on A5 (5x8 inches) paper. PentaxPete used Home made FX -15 but he doesn't say at what EI he used the film.

What I am not sure about is if his scanner adds to the look of grain or if to a person viewing the print it might not look this grainy. I ask this because I have 5x7 prints which are almost the same size as A5 taken in my case on in-date D3200 used at EI 1600 which was developed in Xtol and my prints do not have as pronounced grain as PentaxPete's but of course there are differences such date of film, developer and possibly difference in EI speed

pentaxuser

jp498 · Oct 7, 2020

Caffenol developer has given me the largest grain.

It's possible that Tony's photo is not a high contrast one, but a low contrast negative that's underexposed and has the contrast turned up past 5 in printing. In these examples, Tmax400 is underexposed by accident (fast changing end of day light) and I cranked up the contrast in photoshop. The mix of grains in tmax400 is such that here the coarser more sensitive grains made the image and the finer less sensitive grains didn't get much use. Pushing tmax400 works similarly but is easier to print on paper.
https://flic.kr/p/245pcgJ
https://flic.kr/p/2a1WW6w

Some papers don't scan/photograph well too, so if Tony used Ilford Art300 or a matte paper or alt process, it might not present accurately on the Internet. For example, all the pictorialist photos from the 1890's to WWI have been terribly reproduced. All or Eliot Porter's color photos have been terribly reproduced in spite of his fame coming from sierra club books which poorly show his photos.

NB23 · Oct 7, 2020

Push hp5 to 1600-3200, develop in Ilfosol-3 (which is not a solvent developer) and use a grade 5 filter while printing.

This will get you the results in your link

radiant · Oct 7, 2020

"Pushing" is a bad idea in my opinion; you get too contrasty negatives for grade 5 printing.

Stardelo · Oct 7, 2020

Generally I use medium format film for 1 year and over time I began to like photos with a strong grain and contrast.

How get really grainy and contrasty prints from medium format?

Tomren

Paul Howell

BradS

pentaxuser

MattKing

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Tomren

removed account4

Maris

pentaxuser

Huss

Raghu Kuvempunagar

pentaxuser

R.Gould

radiant

Raghu Kuvempunagar

pentaxuser

Ko.Fe.

koraks

Moderator

warden

Raghu Kuvempunagar

pentaxuser

jp498

NB23

radiant

Stardelo

How get really grainy and contrasty prints from medium format?

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