It works effectively when use as directed. I do not think if is used or needed with FT4 or FT5, but check with Photo Engineer for that.
I've been using Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for decades for fiber base papers. Back in the old days of F-5 sodium thiosulfate fixer, the Kodak Darkroom Dataguides put the fear of cold water not removing fixer as a justification for using HCA on everything, including film.
How does it really work? Does it react in someway? Magic? What?
No speculation, I want to hear from a real science person.
Best Regards Mike
Later in the post he questions the term ion exchange. If the gelatin is the ion exchange site is he proposing that sulfite exchanges with thiosulfate sulfate? Then the resulting compound is more soluble ???Read Richard Knoppow's posts in this thread. Yes, he is a real science person.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.photo.darkroom/jUo3VYGJQEQ
Key word is ion exchange.
It contains sodium sulfite. The MSDS is easily found online.I would be interested in hearing the straight poop on Perma Wash. I have always been skeptical on it.
Read Richard Knoppow's posts in this thread. Yes, he is a real science person.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.photo.darkroom/jUo3VYGJQEQ
Key word is ion exchange.
Is a "science guy/gal" a physicist, zoologist, botanist, or maybe even a chemist as they are all "science guys/gals" as are even Photo Engineers. So were the people who wrote the instructions for HCA. Is anyone who looks up the formula for HCA a "science guy/gal.? By the way, I did not realize that "Photo Engineers" had their own Union. However, just to be safe, my motto is, even with HCA, "when in doubt, wash it out". Can't say that I have ever had a print fade in 60 years..................Regards!Ummm, guys, I am a science guy!
Sorry, just thought a mention might be needed here?
PE
I agree on your expertise. My question is, is there any kind of reaction? I interpret, your earlier statement, that the concentrated solution of sodium sulfite, "displaces" the thiosulfate from the gelatin? The sodium sulfite saturates the gelatin, pushing out a good amount of thiosulfate, ?? Does this make sense?I'm a guy who designed processing solutions and coatings for Kodak for 32 years. I'm a guy who has made emulsions and published a book on the subject. That is the one and only reason that I think I have any credibility posting on photo forums.
PE
Well if Perma Wash has sulfite as its active ingredient, and the mixing directions call for such a dilute stock solution (which it does), then Perma Wash is every bit the snake oil I always suspected. As I recall, it calls for 3 or 4 ounces or so, of the product in a gallon of water. I am by no means a chemist, but I don't think even the most extreme of supersaturation in manufacturing the product could give a strong enough working-strength solution to do one iota of good. I have always thought Perma Wash was snake oil, although I'd gladly be shown wrong. Because if it was as good as the washing instructions on the bottle infer, then it truly is a miracle product.It contains sodium sulfite. The MSDS is easily found online.
How does one prove a negative? Somehow I tend to put more credence in Eastman Kodak than some third party aftermarket company. What else does Heico make in photographic supplies?It appears that Perma Wash contains more surfactant and less sodium sulfite than hypo clearing agent. Ostensibly, the other ingredients allow it to help get fixer out of the paper.
I used Perma Wash when I was fairly actively processing my own black and white film about 20-25 years ago, I never trusted the idea of the 1-5 minute wash that the bottle says you can get away with, so I washed for, I don't know, 10-20 minutes. Also, I was generally using RC paper, because processing fiber base paper was a PITA (it was the drying that I had the most trouble with). Anyway, my negatives and prints look fine after 20-25 years. I haven't done a residual fixer test, and at this point, not sure I need to.
Maybe they would be fine even without the Perma Wash, but I think in order to call it snake oil, some evidence would be required.
You can actually use non Iodized table salt. It has the same effect, and that is how this entire procedure was discovered. During the war, navy photo processors used sea water to assist in washing films and prints. The salt in sea water was acting as a wash aid.
I'm a guy who designed processing solutions and coatings for Kodak for 32 years. I'm a guy who has made emulsions and published a book on the subject. That is the one and only reason that I think I have any credibility posting on photo forums.
PE
How does one prove a negative? Somehow I tend to put more credence in Eastman Kodak than some third party aftermarket company. What else does Heico make in photographic supplies?
Thanks!Here is the scientific foundation of HCA (see PDF attachment).
Short summary of attached article:
- as freshly fixed film is washed, initially thiosulfate washes out very quickly.
- some thiosulfate stays attached to gelatin matrix and is very slow and difficult to wash out.
- several anions (chloride, carbonate, sulfite) are known to engage in an ion exchange process with the thiosulfate trapped in the gelatin, with sulfite being the best of them.
- as the charts in Figure 1 imply, even very low concentrations of active compound are sufficient to make a working HCA.
Thanks!Ok, another thread like the one on Stop Bath use I guess.
Any wash aid is better with FB papers than it is with RC papers. That said, it does help with the emulsion itself to a tiny amount.
Emulsions are like ion exchange resins. In fact, they resemble a mixed bed resin, having both positive and negative charges. Gelatin, or rather the amino acids it is made of, likes to hold on to both positive and negative ions. It also likes to surround them with its coils and "embrace" them. Thiosulfate is a big negative ion, having both Sulfur and Oxygen bound together with a double negative charge. It is held on tightly. Complexed with Silver it is bigger and more tightly bound. In fact there are at least 5 different complexes of Silver with Thiosulfate and some of these are very huge.
What you need to do is remove them by water, and lots of it, or with a big dose of an ion, or to destroy the hypo itself. Paper holds onto this as well. The sizing agents that make paper work, are also liable to hold on to Hypo. HCA is a big dose of ions. It is like washing out an ion exchange resin with an inert salt. Thus, any inert salt will work. HCA uses Sulfite. Seawater would work, but I am not aware of any Sulfite present, just the usual mix of Halides. That is why regular salt will work.
Thus you have the sale of a rather inert chemical to remove Hypo when water would do the trick. You have more chemistry to dispose of, one way or another, and you still have to wash the film or paper to get rid of the HCA. Now, there is a test for residual Silver and residual Hypo, but none for residual HCA!
There is a simplified explanation of HCA. As to using it? I never have. I have had no problems in all of my years except for pictures made when I was about 8 years old. I did not wash enough. Of course back then, I had to be reminded to wash behind my ears.
And thank you John.
PE
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?