How do you prepare a glass plate for use as a neg

Wayne,

Before etching your plates with nasty acid, try the gelatin alone. As long as your plates are clean you shouldn't need to worry. I have never had a problem with collodion adhering to regular window-pane glass, and I know that gelatin is used as a sub, so I can't imagine that you would actually have a problem.

Gelatin should not have a color cast. Albumen adds a very slight yellow color to collodion (I don't know about its affect on gelatin, but again, I don' think you need it). Albumen used as a sub is highly diluted, generally one egg white to 500 ml of water, whipped, allowed to settle, and then filtered.

Strong alkali will also roughen the glass, which is why the old instructions call for washing the plates in strong ammonia. Nasty stuff, but nowhere near as nasty as hydrofluoric acid!

JG Motamedi said:

John,

jason

ps: I think the "dangers" of collodion are overstated. Cutting glass is very easy as long as you spend the $20 on a good oil-type cutter (Toyo makes a great one). Also, the set-up isn't likely to blow up, since collodion is only dangerous at one stage of its production, and very few people make their own collodion; it is commercially available. Lastly, there is no reason to use potassium cyanide as a fixer, regular hypo works just fine.

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The glass is easy to get precut to size and simply polish the edges. I do both wet and dry plate collodion in 5 x 7 and 4 x 5 sizes. Have the glass precut at the local building supply outlet that also seels gals and polish the edges on a cheap belt sander.

Collodion does use a lot of chemicals as almost everything ends up being mixed from scratch, but I don't know who if anybody makes their own collodion these days and that is where the real explosive risk comes in. A lot of other chemicals are hazardous all right, but not any more than most of us use doing alternative processes in general. Proper use and awareness of the nature and risks involved and there shouldn't be the issue it gets made. If a person can't take the time to learn to use the chemicals proper, there's always digital!

I've found using collodion dry plates really makes collodion full of endless possibilities as you can do collodion photography any where and under basically any weather condition, and not be stuck having to have all the regular chemical, a dark box or dark tent hauled everywhere -- just a camera, a light tight box for the plates, and a changing bag. Develop later at home in the darkroom.

The old Silver Sunbeam available on line has some good formulas and instruction for collodion dry plates. http://albumen.stanford.edu/library/monographs/sunbeam/chap37.html

Here's a URL for a good run down on using liquid light for glass plates, much faster and easier than collodion dry plates. http://www.alternativephotography.com/process_dryplate.html

As always;

J Truman

Here is a link to the Wet Plate Collodion forum via JT Szabo's web site:http://www.cwreenactors.com/collodion/

I am pretty sure that guys like Szabo, John Coffer, and the Ostermans who really started the revival in wet plate through photographing Civil War re-enactments mix their own collodion from scratch.

Both Coffer and Osterman have manuals about wet plate but I don't know if you can just buy them or you need to attend a workshop to get them. These guys are a pretty clubby group and I think they derive a good amount of income from the workshops. From what I gather the workshops are excellent and well worth the cost and effort to attend.

they used to also suggest washing the side of the plate you want to coat in strong stop bath. i never did this, just laundry detergent and then lighter fluid, then see if the water "sheets off" the glass, then just plain old non-flavored jello (knox) gelatin. i never used albumen first, and never really had troubles to speak of. it is really pretty simple wayne
it only sounds hard because of the cleaning of the glass, but it is a lot easier than it sounds.
if you are in the hot florida sun, you might want to add hardener to the gelatin + later, the emulsion. i have read about extreme heat (re)liquifying either the gelatine or emulsion. up here in new england it gets king of hot, but not *that* hot.

- john

waynecrider said:

Ok, asking as a novice, will the gelatin stick to the plate by itself without using egg white (do you just use plain ol egg's?) and is there any tint to the gelatin. If using egg white does it impart a color? I'm leaning towards buying some photographic gelatin and trying it.

On the topic of hydroflouric acid, I know it's sold thru various art and crafts stores. Does the roughened glass surface cause problems when printing?

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Just regular egg whites. Neither egg white not gelatine will impart a color to the finished plate.

Directions that I have for both collodion and gelatine emulsions recommend first coating the plate with egg white. I would suggest some experimenting to see if you can get good results without the egg white.

The amount of etching should be so slight as not to be readily visible. It will not effect any prints.

Food grade gelatin will not make a very satisfactory film emulsion, the speed will be very low and the emulsion will not keep. For best results one must use photo grade gelatin. Emulsion quality is very dependent on impurities in the gelatin. Some will decrease the sensitivity while others will increase it. Also effected are keeping properties and fog levels. For many years Kodak made their own gelatin to insure consistent quality.

A few questions

I want to try the Knox gelatin for a test before I go and buy photographic gelatin. Do I mix it per box instructions for use?

Secondly, after cleaning the glass with detergent, would it be best to use alcohol or stop bath or something else?

Third, as pertains to the developing phase, doesn't the gelatin dissolve in liquid after drying. What about straight water.

waynecrider said:

...after cleaning the glass with detergent, would it be best to use alcohol or stop bath or something else?

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Wayne,

A mixture of 40 grams whiting (powdered calcium carbonate/chalk/limestone) wetted with 50 ml distilled water and 10ml 190 proof grain ethanol is recommended for cleaning glass plates for wetplate collodion. If you can't find pure grain alcohol locally I would assume that with less water the milder grain alcohol (70 proof?) sold in liquor stores could be substituted for the pure ethanol. Perhaps denatured alcohol (poisonous if injested though) could also be substituted for the ethanol in the recipe.

The plate is essentially polished in the stuff and then the glass is wiped thoroughly clean to remove the powder.

wayne - -

the last batch of glass i coated - i washed the glass with a plastic dish washing ped and used arm and hammer washing soda. when the glass was still wet, i put it under the tap to see if it "sheeteed" off and did not "stick" to areas on the plate. i have read different ways of cleaning the glass (using stop bath &C) but never have done it that way. i've just used detergent and it has worked well. at one point i used lighter fluid to clean the glass with too, but stopped when i realized i really didn't need to do it.

i mixed the gelatin 2 packet/1 L of hot water. when it was dissolved i let it cool a little ( so i wouldn't burn myself ) i held the clean plate in one hand (edges of plate ) and at an angle. i used a small glass measuring cup and flowed the gelatin across the plate .. it takes a little practice to be able to get the whole plate covered, but it isn't hard. i put 2 or 3 coats of gelatin on and let it all dry. at that point i paint or pour a layer of emulsion, let it dry and paint/pour on a second coat. i kind of wing it most of the time, with no real problems.

mark penderson at alternativephotography.com
http://www.alternativephotography.com/process_dryplate.html
has his method spelled out pretty well. he uses alum hardener and a different amount of gelatin &C + hardened fixer. i'd follow his instructions to the letter and you should have no problems. i have a batch that i am coating either tonight or tomorrow with emulsion (my way), and the next batch i do will be the way mark describes. probably mark's way is better, since i don't really pay attention to amounts of things, i am on auto pilot most of the time ...

once the gelatin is on the glass it is pretty much on there, unless you put it in really hot water or heat it up with a blow dryer too much. if it is on the glass ( clean glass ) you won't have worries of it coming un-attached because of contact with water or photochemistry. i've had gelatin that didn't bond well slide down the drain on me, emulsion and all. i've also had sections of emulsion lift off the glass and "pucker", because of poorly cleaned glass. its kind of tedius, but once you get the hang of it, coating glass with gelatin and emulsion isn't that difficult.

good luck!
john

Sorry I am not a regular participant of apug but I'm generally willing to take some time for emulsion-related discussion. Next time, it would be nice if someone could email me so that I know a thread is ongoing here.

jnanian said:

hi jason

i have been itchin' to use the kodak recipe, it looks easy enough ... but haven't had a chance to, so i broke down and bought another quart of liquid light. it is kind of the same but better ....

Ryuji Suzuki ( http://www.silvergrain.org ) has a ton of experience making his own emulsion. he used to post here from time to time ... maybe he'll chime in ?

-john

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the 8 steps for coating a plate.

Greetings Wayne.
If you would like to see the 8 steps for preparing a glass plate there is a man by the name of Mr. Rob Gibson who is about the best around, he does it the right way and the only way it should be done, he is one of the leading men in that field and he uses the old style camera, he has his own studio that he takes you thur, he is a leading authority on Civil War Photography, on his site you can see all of his work he has done with Wet Plates, so dial him up, here is his site.

civilwarphotograph.com

Hope you enjoy it Wayne.
Caintop=Mike.

papisa said:

Greetings Wayne.
If you would like to see the 8 steps for preparing a glass plate there is a man by the name of Mr. Rob Gibson who is about the best around, he does it the right way and the only way it should be done, he is one of the leading men in that field and he uses the old style camera, he has his own studio that he takes you thur, he is a leading authority on Civil War Photography, on his site you can see all of his work he has done with Wet Plates, so dial him up, here is his site.

civilwarphotograph.com

Hope you enjoy it Wayne.
Caintop=Mike.

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I will certainly check this out. Thanks for the info.

wet plate

this is a great process to learn. to find where photography's earliest foundation stems from is key, like in anything learn from history..........here is a great site to look at, I learned from this person and he's been sought as one of the best......the site has a link that explains the entire process and how the chemicals are made......its an amazing process and enjoy

www.civilwarphotography.com

sean

I have a one of Kodak's pamphlets on how to make a glass plate & emulsion from scratch...ummm, somewhere in my den. I think they probably discontinued printing it, but if you had to have it, I'd make a scan..ah, once I find it...in the den, that is...

szazs said:

I have a one of Kodak's pamphlets on how to make a glass plate & emulsion from scratch...ummm, somewhere in my den. I think they probably discontinued printing it, but if you had to have it, I'd make a scan..ah, once I find it...in the den, that is...

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Thanks for the offer, central FL, but I think what's been described, and some supplementary reading i've done has been pretty thourgh about it.