How do you fix your lith prints?

I'd like to ask how others fix lith prints? Recently I've been using rapid fixer at 1:4 for 60 seconds. This has been with the aim of minimising fixer absorption into the paper to reduce wash times and ensure there is no excess fixer retained in the print. I then give them a 5 minute wash, followed by 10 minutes in HCA and a 30 minute was in a Nova slot washer.

I've noticed that the strong fixer concentration seems to be really bleaching the delicate highlights. I can clearly see the highlights disappear when the print goes in the fixer and it leaves me with a higher contrast, and I belive, less colourful image in the end.

I can't be sure but I think when I was using fixer at 1:9 I was getting less bleaching and more colour.

I am aware of the 'fix up' phenomenon that Tim Rudman talks about but this seems more dramatic than that and I don't regain much colour and tone during dry down. He talks about fixing for the shortest time possible, which would suggest using 1:4 but he may just be assuming 1:9 dilution and not over fixing.

Has anyone else determined whether fixer concentration effects the end result? Do others only use 1:9 or possibly non-rapid fixers?

Hi,

which paper and chemicals are you using? I did not noticed bleaching the highlights with Moersch easy lith and Foma papers, but never paid so much attention top this - so not 100% sure. I am using Ilford rapid fix 1+4 for 2-3 minutes.

Well, all papers have sort of a hazy veiled surface before they are fixed, even with standard chemistry. This is especially noticeable when using Ilford Warmtone fiber, where the veil disappears in what looks like an explosion of contrast. Blacks get dramatically darker, and the high notes 'clear up' and become brighter.
I see this with all papers, in both standard and lith chemistry. Some are more pronounced than others.

That's my experience. Business as usual.

I use Ilford Hypam without hardener, at 1+4 concentration, and a two bath fixing regime, 45 seconds in Bath A, which is Bath B from previous printing session, and then 45 seconds in Bath B, which is prepared from scratch every time. Then I wash for one hour plus.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Well, all papers have sort of a hazy veiled surface before they are fixed, even with standard chemistry. This is especially noticeable when using Ilford Warmtone fiber, where the veil disappears in what looks like an explosion of contrast. Blacks get dramatically darker, and the high notes 'clear up' and become brighter.
I see this with all papers, in both standard and lith chemistry. Some are more pronounced than others.

That's my experience. Business as usual.

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I've noticed this as well - there is a kind of "fix-up" in every print, not just lith ones. However, it is more noticeable with lith. That being said, whatever highlights I lose in the fix come back with dry-down. If they don't, I just go for a little more exposure the next time. You can't think of the colour and highlights in the developer as the final version - it's just an early step of the process.

When I first started doing lith I did 1+9 fixer dilutions (60s each in 2 baths) but then moved to 1+4, and I do 30 seconds in two separate baths, the second one always being fresh for each session. I haven't noticed any differences between the two processes.

Thanks everyone. I recognise that the print can't be judged until it has finished drying and that I could adjust exposure to compensate but it is not always easy to judge.

I do notice slight changes in contrast and highlight tone when printing normally but nothing like when lith printing.

The papers I use most of are Fomatone 131 and 542 (old stock, before emulsion change) and Forte Polywarmtone and Fortoza. Developer is LD20.

Looking back at early prints when I was using 1:9 fixer I was getting strong peaches and orange colours but now the are much more yellow/sepia coloured.

Looking through the bleach and redevelopment chapter in the Rudman book I noticed a section that specifically mentions loss of colour after fixing. Tim gives two formulas for weak alkaline fixers which he says can "something minimise (but not avoid)" colour loss.

Water 750mm
Sodium Thiosulphate 60g
Sodium Carbonate 3g
Water to 1L

Unfortunately he does not say if this is to be used diluted or straight. My guess is that it should be further diluted as he contrasts the above formula with standard fixer which he says has Thiosulphate at 250-300g per Litre and that sounds like a concentrate to me.

I think I will try 1:9 next time and if that doesn't help I'll maybe give the above formula a go.

Simonh82 said:

Looking back at early prints when I was using 1:9 fixer I was getting strong peaches and orange colours but now the are much more yellow/sepia coloured.

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Are you sure that ALL other things are equal? I have found that for example developer exhaustion level will greatly impact color rendition in the prints. Consider also that older prints would have been printed with your paper of choice when it was fresher.

I would say that you should have two fixer baths side by side. Process a sheet of paper in lith, and put it in the stop bath when appropriate. Cut the sheet in half and fix one half in 1+4 and the other in 1+9. If you see any difference, you know where it comes from. I you cannot, the source of the color change will be caused by something else.

That formula is intended to be used straight. It is less than one tenth of a saturated solution. It may be worth a try. The only way to be sure to run prints in both fixer baths that were developed at the same time.

I haven't seen the fixer issue you mention, but I'm not sure how I would see it.....everything looks pretty different in safelight and 1:4 or 1:5 fixer acts pretty quickly.

Thomas Bertilsson said:

Are you sure that ALL other things are equal? I have found that for example developer exhaustion level will greatly impact color rendition in the prints. Consider also that older prints would have been printed with your paper of choice when it was fresher.

I would say that you should have two fixer baths side by side. Process a sheet of paper in lith, and put it in the stop bath when appropriate. Cut the sheet in half and fix one half in 1+4 and the other in 1+9. If you see any difference, you know where it comes from. I you cannot, the source of the color change will be caused by something else.

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The print where I noticed the most dramatic effect was the last print that I made with extremely exhausted developer. It took close to an hour to develop, when fresh developer prints were coming up in about 5. I would have expected to see much more colour and the sky in the background looked like it was at a light/mid grey. Following fixing and drying you can barely distinguish between the sky and the plain white print border.

I can see fairly clearly in my darkroom as I am using red LED lighting and it is bright enough to see the details of the highlights as they emerge.

I am going to perform a test next time. I never make enough time for testing as I only get to set my temporary darkroom up about once a month and then I just want to get on with printing.

Simonh82 said:

The print where I noticed the most dramatic effect was the last print that I made with extremely exhausted developer. It took close to an hour to develop, when fresh developer prints were coming up in about 5. I would have expected to see much more colour and the sky in the background looked like it was at a light/mid grey. Following fixing and drying you can barely distinguish between the sky and the plain white print border.

I can see fairly clearly in my darkroom as I am using red LED lighting and it is bright enough to see the details of the highlights as they emerge.

I am going to perform a test next time. I never make enough time for testing as I only get to set my temporary darkroom up about once a month and then I just want to get on with printing.

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That could be a developer issue, not a fixer one - there is a point of little or no return when the developer is too exhausted.

I would try Thomas' suggestion for the fix experiment - it seems like a quick way to determine if that is indeed the issue or not.

Next printing session is going to be devoted to a major backlog of contact printing so experiments with fixer will have to wait a little but I will do it next time I do some lith printing.