How do I shoot a group shot of 160 people?

Wayne R. Scott · Dec 6, 2006

I have been asked to do a group photograph of an entire grade school with teachers (approximately 160 people) next week. I have never photographed this many people at one time. They seem to think I am going to photograph them on 35mm. (I don't think so, Tim.)

My question is will 6x7 be adequate? Or should I use 4x5, 5x7 or 8x10? The last two options will have to be in black and white as I don't have any color film. I also do not own any wide angle lens for these last two formats.

I am leaning toward using my Koni-Omega with a 58mm lens and a 4x5 with 100mm Kodak Wide Field Ektar. I have color and B&W film for both of these formats. I will have a chance to shoot some test shots this week end at the location, sans people.

For lighting I have some monolights and battery powered shoe mount flashes. What about flash bulbs in a graflite 3 cell flash?

I guess what I am trying to say is ........................HELP!! HELP!!

Wayne

AZLF · Dec 7, 2006

Does it have to be inside? It would certainly be easier outside in daylight than trying to light a group that size indoors with strobes. I've only shot one large group shot and I did that outside from about 60' in the air using a 4x5" with a 90 mm lens. Even though you probably cannot get that kind of height I would suggest shooting from as high a camera position as you can manage. I have a Slik tripod with a Bogen head that puts the camera at about 10' in the air at full extention. I use my 4x5" camera case on end to stand on when I have it that high. 160 in 4 rows of 40 is still going to be at least 60' wide and about 4' deep at a minimum so you will have to back up some no matter what lens you use. That is where the height will come in handy. I think medium format would do fine and it sounds like you have the lenses needed in that format.

If it has to be indoors then I hope you have a good flash meter and a bunch of fairly powerful strobes with stands.

wiseowl · Dec 7, 2006

AK-47!

Three points to consider :-

1. Quantity and quality of light.
2. Is every face visible.
3. Someone will blink in every shot.

With the first you have opportunity to check this out with the trial shoot. If you can take (at least) 2 people with you on the trial then you can space them to check for DOF and eveness of illumination.

For the second, if you can arrange the group in tiers, eg sitting on floor, seated, standing, standing on a ledge/step and with each row 1/2 a person width out of phase then this will help. Failing that, get the camera up high so people are looking up at it.

If you manage a method of ensuring no-one is blinking then please let me know ;-).

One other thought, do you have access to a panoramic camera? even if it's a rotating one it would help, remember those school photo's where you were arranged in a semi circle and one kid always ran around the back to be in it twice.

Rgds

Martin

eddym · Dec 7, 2006

I did a class of 150 8th graders last summer. We posed them in front of a fountain: sitting, kneeling, standing, and a few standing on the edge of the fountain! I just hoped that none would fall (or jump) in! I shot Portra 400 in morning light with a Rollei 6003 and 80mm Planar. 8x10's looked great.
One thing to remember with rows in a group: the near row needs to be shorter than the next, and the next, etc. The group will end up in a trapezoidal arrangement, due to the angle of view of the lens. Stop down for dof and focus 1/3 of the way into the group.
If you have to do it indoors, mount your strobes close to your camera and high, to avoid shadows falling on the faces behind.
As for blinks.... that's why there are 12 shots on a roll of 120 (or 10 for 6x7). Use them all!

jstraw · Dec 7, 2006

eddym said:
One thing to remember with rows in a group: the near row needs to be shorter than the next, and the next, etc. The group will end up in a trapezoidal arrangement, due to the angle of view of the lens. Stop down for dof and focus 1/3 of the way into the group.

In my opinion, this is the most important thing.

Get access to the space, figure out how much space the group will occupy. Set up your camera. You need either a set of bleachers for them so they rise from front to back or you need to shoot from a high angle. Bleachers is best.

Use gaffers tape to mark the edges of the trapezoid. You find the trapezoid by looking through the viewfinder or on the GG and marking the four corners of the viewing area on the scene with tape. Dress comfortably...you'll get sweaty running back and forth to your camera!

You can even mark out different trapezoids from different distances to accomodate possible crowd-spread that you guessed wrong for.

Have your group fill in from the center and work their way outward. Determing which trapezoid they filled and move your camera forward or back accordingly (all the trapezoids are for the same lens's angle of view so don't change lenses unless distance constraints neccessitate it. In that case, have the trapezpoids marked for the different lenses.

Shoot plenty of frames...you will not have total cooperation from a crowd of mostly children but you don't want any of the teachers in mid-disciplinary action or the principal sneezing.

Good luck.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 7, 2006

AK 47? naaah- too lightweight- Thompson submachine gun with the belt-feed attachment.

Actually, for another sort-of smartass answer, but kinda serious, an 8x20 or 12x20 with a 355 G-Claron. That's what banquet cameras were designed for.

Whatever you choose, use the largest format available to you, because with 160 people, they're going to be VERY small on the negative unless the negative is really big to begin with. My cousin found this out the hard way when she hired a woman to shoot her wedding, and the woman shot the entire thing on 35mm with a Canon AE1. Including the formals, which had the groom's family, all fifteen of them (mom, dad, mom's new husband, dad's new girlfriend, and eleven siblings). She lined them up instead of grouping them, and everyone's faces were tiny dots in the photos. Even at 8x10 print sizes, she couldn't tell who half of the in-laws were, especially the men since they were all wearing tuxes and looked alike.

Jim Noel · Dec 7, 2006

I agree with FLying Camera. The photograph youare trying to make is what the banquet cameras were made for. Certainly 35mm, 6x7 and similar roll film will not perform adequately in this situation. The smallest to consider is 8x10 and that is marginal for good representation of each face.

ALso, don't overlook Cirkut for such large groups.

Wayne R. Scott · Dec 7, 2006

Currently the plan is to shoot indoors in the gym with the group on the bleachers. Hopefully I will be able to shoot from an elevated position at least as high as the half way up rows on the bleachers. The trapezoid marked out with tape is an excellent idea. This is Iowa so we have duct tape and cold weather which is why we are shooting inside.

I just checked the camera closet and there is no Cirkut or Banquet camera in there so those options are out.

I will check the angle of view tonight with different lens choices and the lighting power of my strobes tomorrow night. I do own a flash meter. Has any one ever mixed flash bulbs with electronic flash?

What problems would I run into with flash synch using a leaf shutter and flash bulbs and electonic flash at the same time?

Thanks for the advise so far guys. I am hoping for a 5% to 6% blink rate

Wayne

jstraw · Dec 7, 2006

I'd stick with the monolights and light pretty head-on. Think about the inverse square principal and you can see what the issues are. How many lights and stands do you have?

I'd get into that gym well ahead of time and be doing a lot of metering and tweaking of the lights' positions.

Konical · Dec 7, 2006

Good Afternoon, Wayne,

My sympathy to you. When I was teaching and acting as yearbook adviser, group shots of the HS band and a couple of other fairly large groups were necessary each year. It was always a challenge. The advice to use the largest possible format is exactly right. I did such shots with 4 x 5 and managed, but the prints I needed for yearbook use were not bigger than 8 x 10.

As others have already indicated, positioning and lighting are the real headaches. You're on the right track if you plan to use a somewhat elevated position (a scaffold can help). Adequate lighting can be a problem, but even lighting is the more difficult issue. I used a studio-type flash high at camera plus four supplementary flashes (two on each side at different heights) and could just manage with 400-speed film. Having the front tilt on a view camera made front/back focus easier, but I was really at the edge of what was possible.

I think trying to mix flash and tungsten would add problems, but might work in B & W; with color, it could lead to some strange results.

Best of luck to you.

Konical

bill schwab · Dec 7, 2006

I've done this before from a rented cherrypicker. Getting up hig eliminated the need for them all to be on risers.

B

jimgalli · Dec 7, 2006

I did one a couple of years ago for the Range Commanders Council Optical Systems Group. No pressure taking THE photo of 185 photographers. I did the requisite color snapshot with a Nikon, but I also shot the 7X17 banquet camera which they all thought was entirely cool. I set up well ahead of time in the bed of a pickup truck using a fairly tall tripod. Seemed to be just enough elevation to see every face. I was outdoors in Las Vegas, so my biggest enemy was contrast. I think your wide field Ektar would be a fine choice though I would start with a 135 on 4X5. The 305 on 717 was actually too wide.

MarkS · Dec 7, 2006

Use 4x5. Get up high. On the roof of a one-story school wil be perfect. Or set up in the balcony, subjects on the stage. You'll need help organizing the group, and an assistant at the camera. A bullhorn is also a good idea. If outdoors, choose a place/time for front light. If indoors, stage lighting. Get set up well in advance, shoot a Polaroid or two first, but BE READY when the kids show up. I did this sort of thing for a portrait studio chain, back in '79-'81, and those were the basics of our procedure. Most of the time we used Bronica ETR's and two Metz 402 potato-masher flashes, with Tri-X; but we'd use 4x5 when the group was that big. I think the largest we ever did was 550 people.

Wayne R. Scott · Dec 7, 2006

Mark,

When you shot the large groups on 4x5 do you recall what lens length you used? The 4x5 lenses that I have are 88mm, 100mm WF, 135mm, 162mm, 190mm, 203mm, and 250mm.

Jim Galli has me wondering if I should lean toward a slightly wide normal of 135mm.

I do have a Bronica ETR system with a 50mm PE, but I thought 645 format might be a little small for this big of a group.

Some one asked how many monolights and stands I have, the answer is 5. I think I will use them close to the camera position maybe two to the right, two to the left, and one right above the camera. I will check for light fall off with the flash meter between the front and back rows and left and right sides of the group.

I think I can get a couple of the teachers to help with organizing the kids; especially my wife, since she is a teacher at the school and is the person who volunteered me for the job.

I do appreciate the suggestions so far. I will post results to this thread should I survive the session.

Wayne

Roger Hicks · Dec 7, 2006

Wayne R. Scott said:
I do appreciate the suggestions so far. I will post results to this thread should I survive the session.

Wayne

We look forward to it. As we say in France, "Bonne Courage!"

A friend who was a Royal Air Force photographer reckoned 4x5 was fine for squadron shots: flatter film and sharper lenses than larger formats made up for the reduced area. Then again, in civilian life he once shot a 48-sheet poster with a Minolta Autocord 6x6.

Cheers,

R.

Wyno · Dec 7, 2006

Wyno

I used to do school photography and the best way to do a group this size is from the roof of a building, just a single storey is best. An assisstant to help with organising the students is just about essential.
You will need to have the students stand in rows of height order, with smallest at the front, and teachers at the back.
Have the students stand so that the front of the frame is filled and the back of the frame is filled. By this I mean a smaller number of students in the front row and gradually increase the number in each row as they go further back.
We used to use Mamiya 6 x 4.5 cameras with two Metz CT60 flashes for the big groups. Using a 4x5 camera is overkill but, hey, it'll keep the kids interested.
One operator I heard of here in Australia used an 8x10 camera and a cherry picker type crane, took at least two photos of every group, scanned the negs and any kid who blinked was imported from the other photo and the final result was everyone looking at the camera with their eyes open.
Be very careful going onto a roof. I had several occasions where I had to climb onto a wet slate roof with the camera and flashes and nearly slipped off.
good luck
Mike

Larry H-L · Dec 7, 2006

Use a longer lens if possible. A wide lens will give the folks in the back rows a much smaller head size than the people in the front. Normal lens length for the format, or even longer if you have room to back up.

If you are inside and have the kids on bleachers, put the lights up high, so that the distance from the lights to the front and back row is about the same distance.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 7, 2006

Wayne R. Scott said:
Currently the plan is to shoot indoors in the gym with the group on the bleachers. Hopefully I will be able to shoot from an elevated position at least as high as the half way up rows on the bleachers. The trapezoid marked out with tape is an excellent idea. This is Iowa so we have duct tape and cold weather which is why we are shooting inside.

I just checked the camera closet and there is no Cirkut or Banquet camera in there so those options are out.

I will check the angle of view tonight with different lens choices and the lighting power of my strobes tomorrow night. I do own a flash meter. Has any one ever mixed flash bulbs with electronic flash?

What problems would I run into with flash synch using a leaf shutter and flash bulbs and electonic flash at the same time?

Thanks for the advise so far guys. I am hoping for a 5% to 6% blink rate

Wayne

Bulbs and electronic flash don't mix. They can't sync at the same time. It's an all or nothing deal. I'd go with the electronic flash, only because it's easier to meter to get the exposure right.

eddym · Dec 7, 2006

One advantage of using a view camera is that you can use tilt to increase the depth of field, so you can use a larger aperture, thus requiring less flash power.
About the flash; aim the flashes for the back row and feather the light on the front row. You'll need the brighter center of the light beam to reach the back rows. Meter both front and back rows and bias your exposure towards the back row reading with negative film (you can burn in the front row), but towards the front row with transparency film.
I would avoid mixing light sources unless you are shooting B&W. In a pinch, I have used a slow shutter speed to take advantage of ambient light, then added flash, but the color balance was difficult for the printer to optimize.

DBP · Dec 7, 2006

It occurs to me that if you are shooting in a gym you might want to set up on one set of bleachers and put the group on the other. This would enable you to stagger the group while still shooting down. The two sets of bleachers should be about 60-70 feet apart when open.

biggoolies · Dec 7, 2006

How important is the shot? What will be the final sized print? Is the quality all that important as long as you see each face. Shoot a high angle, I mean quite high and preferably outdoors. Of course you get higher angles from the roof of the school. Hopefully a cloudy day, forget about flash. film size unimportant unless you are photographing for a corporate shot. Don't worry have fun.

Dave Parker · Dec 7, 2006

.50 cal mini gun comes to mind! but probably wouldn't work in this situation!

I know when I was in the gulf, it did do the job!

But if on medium format, I would suggest either a 45mm or a 50mm depending on the format, my 45 works great for large groups on the Mamiya 1000s and my 50mm worked great on my Bronica..

Anyway you go have fun and make the shot, thats what it is all about.

Dave

biggoolies · Dec 7, 2006

Oh yes and if you can get ahold of one of these you won't have to do anymore climbing.

http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/japanese-robocrop-dusters-seized-150987.php

Wayne R. Scott · Dec 7, 2006

How important is the shot? The school seems to think it is pretty important.

There will be a helicopter there from the Pentagon, but I don't think I am going to have access to it. Besides they want the group shot done about an hour before the helicopter arrives. I will be doing the PJ type shots with Leica 35mm and 50mm lens when the helicopter arrives.

The group shot is going to be inside on gym bleachers, but I will have access to a raised podium across from the bleachers. Hopefully that will get me high enough.

Wayne

Parsifal · Dec 8, 2006

Can I suggest another look at the problem? Much of the advice given makes good sense for a landscape, but (IMHO) less for a group of kids at a time when they are excited. It sounds like you are less than secure in what you are doing. If this shot is important, do it simply in the easiest workable way and don't get eaten up with the nuts and bolts. Shoot the 6x7 and for heaven's sake don't screw around trying to increase depth with tilts. If possible, try to get a good useable aperture with strobes alone, using a good medium high speed film.
Make a test run with a few people scattered around to check exposure. Can you Polaroid?
I'd hate to see you blow this by trying to use unfamiliar technology.....
KISS is a good idea when there are no retakes.

How do I shoot a group shot of 160 people?

Wayne R. Scott

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