How do I learn the zone system

Sparky said:

But it's a very dangerous rut to get caught up in, and becomes easier to get obsessed with making the perfect negative than it does to really THINK hard about the kinds of images you're making and why.

Click to expand...

Bonk,

Before you begin. IMO, the ZS is more about predictability and consistency-------not perfection. The optimum negative can, however, lead you to a perfect (in your mind's eye so to speak) print because the flexibility within the printing process does not require a perfect negative. I don't know any photographer who is happy printing difficult negatives. The ZS is one path you can take that will lead to predictable and consistent results in the exoposure and development of b&w film.

Good luck and that was my last response (I hope)! Good discussion. In the ZS the spot meter is your friend; in BTZS, the incident meter is your friend. If you don't get intimately acquainted with one of them, then that wonderful image you witnessed on the groundglass will stay on the groundglass rather than be transferred to your negative.

Chuck

bonk said:

What do you think about the Gossen Spot Master 2 ? Is it good? Can it do what I need ?

Click to expand...

Gossen is an excellent make of meter and the Spot Master 2 has the crucial ability to take 1° measurements:
http://www.gossen-photo.de/english/...er.html,picts/navi_foto_sub_01_spotmaster.gif
so yes, it will do what you need.

As regards the ZS in general, I agree with most other contributors. Bear in mind that it is possible to use the ZS in a very simple way. I have never undertaken extensive film "testing", I let the film manufacturer do that, I simply routinely downrate b+w negative materials by 2/3 stop and give slightly less development, color negative I downrate 1 stop, color reversal film (Kodak Elitechrome) I uprate 1/3 stop. The only part of the ZS I use is the concept of zones itself, which is essential if you use a spotmeter or indeed any selective meter. It is really not hard to think "Highlight zone VIII, deepest shadow zone II, midtone zone V". Essentially, you can go into the ZS as deeply (or superficially) as you like, the only criterion is obtaining results that you like!

Best regards,

David

bonk said:

What do you think about the Gossen Spot Master 2 ? Is it good? Can it do what I need ?

Click to expand...

Dear Bonk,

I have one. It can do what you need, perfectly, but it is probably the least convenient spot meter I have ever used: very small field of view surrounding the centre spot, button controls that are not outstandingly convenient, and a rather weird interpretation of the Zone System.

It is a lot better than no spot meter but the much cruder Pentaxes (digital or needle -- I have both) are a lot easier to use, especially if you like the IRE (Institude of Radio Engineers) scale which is a sort of 'instant Zone reading' in its own right.

Cheers,

R.

Chuck1 said:

Roger,

I hear what you are saying. In my time here, I have heard so many put downs to the ZS---one day, well after that big lightbulb went off over my head, it became abundantly clear to me that many of those put downs were coming from mouths that did not understand it at all. I'm so grateful that I did not listen to them. That's all I want the OP to realize. And he should realize as well, there's plenty of other awesome photographers who have been successful without using it, as I'm sure you are well aware.

Chuck

Click to expand...

Dear Chuck,

We are in complete agreement. Our advice to the OP is identical. DO NOT be put off by those who knock it, whether or not they understand what they are talking about, but equally DO NOT allow yourself to be persuaded by evangelists that if you don't use it (or worse still, don't like it) you are a fool and an incompetent.

Cheers,

R.

For what it is worth I recently taught a friend the zone system. She was required to study it for an A-level but her tutor was as much use as a chocolate fire-guard.

Although I do not think that my friend will go on to use the zone system she did say that studying it and understanding it gave her a much better understanding of the medium. Surely this is what the zone system was developed for in the first place - to give students a better understanding of the effects of metering, exposure and development in order to achieve a negative that retains sufficient information to allow full use of printing controls in the darkroom. This allows the photographer to achieve the desired print rather than trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear!

I achieve that the zone system be studied and understood by all photographers. Even if you don't become a fully blown zonie it should lead to better negatives and less heartache in the darkroom. I would also recommend it to digital users - they may not have to spend so much time fixing bad images in Photoshop.

I would also recommend John Blakemore's Black and White Workshop (available from amazon and others).

Good Luck

midlife crisis said:

Although I do not think that my friend will go on to use the zone system she did say that studying it and understanding it gave her a much better understanding of the medium. Surely this is what the zone system was developed for in the first place - to give students a better understanding of the effects of metering, exposure and development in order to achieve a negative that retains sufficient information to allow full use of printing controls in the darkroom. This allows the photographer to achieve the desired print rather than trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear!

I achieve that the zone system be studied and understood by all photographers. Even if you don't become a fully blown zonie it should lead to better negatives and less heartache in the darkroom. I would also recommend it to digital users - they may not have to spend so much time fixing bad images in Photoshop.

Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%. Learning the Zone system gives a photographer a complete understanding of what is really happening when a meter reading is made and a negative is exposed, far better than anything else they could ever learn.

eddym said:

... far better than anything else they could ever learn.

Click to expand...

Except basic sensitometry...

Cheers,

R.

David H. Bebbington said:

I have never undertaken extensive film "testing", I let the film manufacturer do that, I simply routinely downrate b+w negative materials by 2/3 stop and give slightly less development, color negative I downrate 1 stop, color reversal film (Kodak Elitechrome) I uprate 1/3 stop.

Click to expand...

I rate film as you do for starters and often test extensively, but I tend to test to find the edges of the film's capabilities.

Where the zone system is useful for me is to understand what the range of the scene is and whether it will fit the film or my idea of how I'd like the scene to look. For colour neg film the former is seldom if ever a problem the later, which is generally to get drama out of flatness, is often the goal. When shooting chrome and especially crossprossed chromes knowing if exposure and development can make the photograph work is helped by some knowledge of ZS.

Roger Hicks said:

Except basic sensitometry...

Cheers,

R.

Click to expand...

Too many syllables...

what's the whole thing worth if I don't develop myself

I suppose the applying the zone system isn't worth that much if I give the negatives away for development?