How Did All Those Old-Time Movies Get Such Great Grey Balence And Why....

Kino · Jun 16, 2020

The genesis of "Classic Hollywood" cinematography in the Sound Era is a strange story. With the coming of Sound, it became super critical to process negative and positive sound tracks to exacting specifications of density and gamma to get proper sound reproduction. When this control was enforced upon release printing, suddenly the same stringent controls were forced upon Cinematographers in that they HAD to make the image fall within this critical sound processing window, so the use of light meters and tons of lighting to craft a specific tonal range were adopted.

When you cannot deviate appreciably from a set print gamma fixed to a sound track, you have to craft an image that fits within the parameters and devise a system to manipulate tones within those parameters.

MattKing · Jun 16, 2020

Kino said:
The genesis of "Classic Hollywood" cinematography in the Sound Era is a strange story. With the coming of Sound, it became super critical to process negative and positive sound tracks to exacting specifications of density and gamma to get proper sound reproduction. When this control was enforced upon release printing, suddenly the same stringent controls were forced upon Cinematographers in that they HAD to make the image fall within this critical sound processing window, so the use of light meters and tons of lighting to craft a specific tonal range were adopted.

When you cannot deviate appreciably from a set print gamma fixed to a sound track, you have to craft an image that fits within the parameters and devise a system to manipulate tones within those parameters.

Sounds like a few Zone System advocates I've encountered over the years.

Vaughn · Jun 16, 2020

Interesting...I would have thought sound would have been added after the initial film developing.

Wallendo · Jun 16, 2020

I think the bottom line is that movie makers plan out everything months in advance with every scene carefully staged, costumes carefully chosen, camera angles predetermined, extensive lighting setups and so forth.

On the other hand, I am lucky just to have enough to focus and click the shutter button.

What I really find amazing about those movies is that they obtained such high quality images to be projected on a large screen using what is essentially 35mm half-frame image size.

Kino · Jun 16, 2020

To be fair, you are seeing the average of 24 frames per second but still it doesn't detract from their skills...

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Jun 16, 2020

In addition to all the factors hitherto mentioned, we are overlooking the fact that movies are seen as projected images, rather than printed images. This changes the process of tone reproduction and the resulting impact on the viewer.

scheimfluger_77 · Jun 17, 2020

Vaughn said:
Interesting...I would have thought sound would have been added after the initial film developing.

That’s right. The camera original will not have the sound embedded in it because audio was captured on a sync magnetic tape machine, almost exclusively a Nagra. Video and audio were synced up on the Movieola and edited “in-sync” that way. Once the edits were done and spliced into ‘A’ and ‘B’ rolls, a duplicating Master was created. I think sound was embedded at this point, and could be either optical or magnetic.

Kino · Jun 17, 2020

scheimfluger_77 said:
That’s right. The camera original will not have the sound embedded in it because audio was captured on a sync magnetic tape machine, almost exclusively a Nagra. Video and audio were synced up on the Movieola and edited “in-sync” that way. Once the edits were done and spliced into ‘A’ and ‘B’ rolls, a duplicating Master was created. I think sound was embedded at this point, and could be either optical or magnetic.

Like any other complex subject, it depends on the era. Sound in the 1920's was recorded to disc and to directly to film via optical valve. Direct sound recording (in camera) started in the late 1920's and Fox Movietone used this system up into the 1950's. Magnetic tape wasn't even an option until after WWII.

David Lyga · Aug 18, 2020

Vaughn said:
Interesting...I would have thought sound would have been added after the initial film developing.

Optical sound was initially used before magnetic sound. The 'image' of the sound was dependent upon proper development.

Am I correct or do I err (?) when I say that at the time of the image capture, the optical sound was simultaneously recorded, however some frames distant in order to synchronize the image with the sound due to the 'slow' travel of sound on the movie scene. - David Lyga

AgX · Aug 18, 2020

At professional movie making sound was never recorded on the camera film but only later added to the print film.
The need for editing made it much more practical to record the sound seperately. This could be the on-scene sound or sound re-spoken later in the studio. The sound taking medium varied. Magnetic recording as such is about as old optical recording, but only emerged in the 30s (on wire, not yet on tape).

Kino · Aug 18, 2020

It's more complex than a simple statement; depends on the application and era.

Sound on film itself: Typically recorded on a second sound "camera" (a light valve recorder) synced to the picture camera via mechanical interlock on the sound stage. This was "double system" sound; pix on one strip, sound on the other.
Sound on Disc: Same as above, only recording sound to a recording lathe in a sound proof booth. Every print that was projected had an accompanying disc that was mechanically interlocked with the film projector for sync.
Sound on film IN CAMERA: Typically used in newsreel applications, like Fox Movietone News. Sound was recorded on edge of film after the picture aperture; displacement varied according to camera manufacturer and era. Early Movietone had a non-standard sound displacement of only 9 frames; later cameras were built with standard displacement of 20/21 frames (depends on how you count it) after the image taking aperture.
16mm Sound on Film Cameras, like the Auricon, Maurer and others had the standard displacement for projection in both optical and magnetic sound on film applications.

Magnetic recordings for motion pictures are about two decades newer than optical sound recordings; 1925 for optical sound and debatable for magnetic, as it depends on if you are speaking of double system or on film type recording (magstripe).

Kino · Aug 18, 2020

David Lyga said:
Optical sound was initially used before magnetic sound. The 'image' of the sound was dependent upon proper development.

Am I correct or do I err (?) when I say that at the time of the image capture, the optical sound was simultaneously recorded, however some frames distant in order to synchronize the image with the sound due to the 'slow' travel of sound on the movie scene. - David Lyga

Typically after the image, so that it would be in advance of the picture. There were systems that did the opposite, but the former became the standard. The intermittent movement of the film through the gate was no place to record a velocity-sensitive (pitch) sound recording, so it exited the taking aperture, traveled about 5 frames and wrapped around a flywheel-stabilized recording drum to be exposed for sound.

Alan Edward Klein · Aug 18, 2020

If you look carefully at old John Wayne westerns from the 1930's BW movies when he got started, you'll realize he had lipstick on. Many men actors had to wear lipstick to darken their lips to distinguish them. Don't know what color they used. He rode a horse pretty good too. And sang and played the guitar, or faked it pretty well.

Arthurwg · Aug 18, 2020

Weren't those old B&W films shot on Ortho? I've been told that a blue filter will give that effect on Pan films but I have not tried it.

Kino · Aug 18, 2020

Arthurwg said:
Weren't those old B&W films shot on Ortho? I've been told that a blue filter will give that effect on Pan films but I have not tried it.

USA-centric view:
1895 to about 1905 - Blue Sensitive. Motion PIcture Patents Trust members shot Kodak exclusively, but Independents shot what they could get and a lot of it was Agfa and Lumiere film.
1905 to about 1925 or so - Blue ramping up to Ortho with some extended green sensitivity, depending on maker; Kodak, Agfa, Lumiere, Ansco, etc.
1925 Pancrhomatic starts but Ortho remains popular.
Panchromatic dominates after sound arrives in late 1920s.

AgX · Aug 18, 2020

Kino said:
Sound on film IN CAMERA: Typically used in newsreel applications,

A US-centric view.

mshchem · Aug 19, 2020

They looked great because these folks were geniuses. Top of the heap. The guys at every point were the best. Lighting, make up, camera men, guys that made the prints. I think some of the old school ways are gone. Certainly today great movies can be made, and are being made. So much of the CGI makes it so busy it looks like a video game.

Nothing like a Gary Cooper, Jimmy Stewart, Jean Arthur classic directed by Frank Capra

Kino · Aug 19, 2020

AgX said:
A US-centric view.

Exactly what I said

Louis Nargi · Aug 19, 2020

Thank You learned a lot

How Did All Those Old-Time Movies Get Such Great Grey Balence And Why....

Kino

MattKing

Moderator

Vaughn

Wallendo

Kino

Michel Hardy-Vallée

Membership Council

scheimfluger_77

Kino

David Lyga

AgX

Kino

Kino

Alan Edward Klein

Arthurwg

Kino

AgX

mshchem

Kino

Louis Nargi

How Did All Those Old-Time Movies Get Such Great Grey Balence And Why....

Moderator

Membership Council

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency