How can I ruin 4x5 x-ray sheet films?

nothinghappened · Apr 28, 2022

Hi!
My goal is to reproduce the deterioration given by time on some photos taken years ago.
Visually, I'd like to get damage on the emulsion (abrasions, holes, scratches) but in a totally random way.

I've been looking for a way to corrode enlargements made on x-ray film lately, but I'm having a bit of difficulty.

By immersing photographic films in undiluted hydrochloric acid (15-30%), corrosion is visible already after 5 minutes, while with x-ray films I didn't get any effect even after an hour or more, but the emulsion to fade away.

Yesterday I tried ammonia (30%) with dilution 1+19, 1+10, 1+4 and 1+1, but it did not give results in the medium term (2 hours of immersion).
What else could I use to try and ruin these plates?

Thank you in advance for your help!

PS: I attached the kind of results I'm looking for.
This guy used ammonia, but he doesn't say dilution or waiting time.

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 28, 2022

Very dilute bleach, and apply with a cotton ball. I've used full on bleach to remove the emulsion from xray film. You'll have to experiment as bleach is pretty potent stuff.

Nitroplait · Apr 28, 2022

Try heat. Hair dryer/heat gun may lift the emulsion here and there.
Perhaps toss the hot negative in iced water.

Paul Howell · Apr 28, 2022

Use very hot developer, around a 100 F for a very short development time in a paper developer, then a cool stop and fix, that should create reticulation and may cause pin holes in the emulsion.

nothinghappened · Apr 28, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Very dilute bleach, and apply with a cotton ball. I've used full on bleach to remove the emulsion from xray film. You'll have to experiment as bleach is pretty potent stuff.

Thank you for answering.

I tried with bleach, but it just removes the whole image from the plate...

nothinghappened · Apr 28, 2022

Paul Howell said:
Use very hot developer, around a 100 F for a very short development time in a paper developer, then a cool stop and fix, that should create reticulation and may cause pin holes in the emulsion.

I'll keep It in mind for the next development.

Unfortunately I'm trying to damage developed films now

Andrew O'Neill · Apr 28, 2022

nothinghappened said:
Thank you for answering.

I tried with bleach, but it just removes the whole image from the plate...

Even diluted? Straight bleach will remove the emulsion instantly. Very dilute will give you more control, I think. You might want to research ways to "lift" the emulsion from its base... if that is even possible with today's films. Back in the day, when emulsions were thicker, it was easier.

nothinghappened · Apr 28, 2022

Andrew O'Neill said:
Even diluted? Straight bleach will remove the emulsion instantly. Very dilute will give you more control, I think. You might want to research ways to "lift" the emulsion from its base... if that is even possible with today's films. Back in the day, when emulsions were thicker, it was easier.

I'm trying with an highly diluted solution tonight, I really hope it'll work.

Anyway, I really don't understand why ammonia gave me no results.

reddesert · Apr 28, 2022

nothinghappened said:
I'm trying with an highly diluted solution tonight, I really hope it'll work.

Anyway, I really don't understand why ammonia gave me no results.

Possibly the person who used ammonia used it during the processing and not on already developed and fixed films. Rapid fixer is made of ammonium thiosulfate, and the ammonia is a fixing agent (and a base that might react with gelatin). Paraphrasing this from an old post by Ron Mowrey: The ammonia and thiosulfate ions act together to make the fixer rapid, each alone is not a very strong or effective fixer.

So dunking the processed film in ammonia may just be inefficiently re-fixing it. You might be able to damage it with a very strong concentration of ammonia, but that also might be stronger ammonia than you can stand (remember ammonia at strong enough concentration is toxic). There should be a better way.

Generally, not just for ammonia, it may also matter whether you originally used a fixer with hardener. I don't know enough about X-ray emulsions to know what kind of difference a hardener would make.

grat · Apr 28, 2022

From personal experience, let it fall out of the drying clip while still damp, and have your cat "rescue" it by chasing it around a tile floor.

Are you trying to produce damaged negatives, or aged prints?

I would think a paper towel with a dilute bleaching solution on it, blotted-- not rubbed-- against the negative (or paper) prior to fixing would result in removing undeveloped silver. If done before the developing step, should remove any silver and produce a void area. You'd have to rinse it pretty thoroughly before developing, I would think though.

nothinghappened · Apr 28, 2022

reddesert said:
Possibly the person who used ammonia used it during the processing and not on already developed and fixed films. Rapid fixer is made of ammonium thiosulfate, and the ammonia is a fixing agent (and a base that might react with gelatin). Paraphrasing this from an old post by Ron Mowrey: The ammonia and thiosulfate ions act together to make the fixer rapid, each alone is not a very strong or effective fixer.

So dunking the processed film in ammonia may just be inefficiently re-fixing it. You might be able to damage it with a very strong concentration of ammonia, but that also might be stronger ammonia than you can stand (remember ammonia at strong enough concentration is toxic). There should be a better way.

Generally, not just for ammonia, it may also matter whether you originally used a fixer with hardener. I don't know enough about X-ray emulsions to know what kind of difference a hardener would make.

Originally, what I wanted to achieve was a similar result to what I was getting by developing enlargements on Agfa Avitone films in exhausted and very diluted lith development (Moersch Easylith).
Overexposing the film by 5-6 stops made the image look noticeably wasted, with areas of the emulsion completely "burned out".

Not being able to find the Agfa Avitone, I tried to perform the same procedure with other films (Kodak X-Omat, Agfa CP-G, Fuji Medical), but despite exposures of over 10 minutes, the contrast did not decrease and the image appeared relatively well, with emulsion completely intact.

That is why I am thinking of alternative methods to achieve at least a similar effect.

The stains you can see at the bottom of the print are also present on the negative (a copy made from the original 6×6 on Agfa Avitone P3P) as holes on the emulsion.

Paul Howell · Apr 28, 2022

Robert Capa's D Day negatives were damaged when in a rush to print were put in hot drying cabinet, the few images that were salvaged are very damaged. Try drying with a hair dryer set on high. With luck will get dust and lint stuck to the emulsion.

nothinghappened · Apr 29, 2022

Tonight I left an Agfa CP-G plate in a solution of water and bleach at a 1+99 dilution.
The result was interesting.
The emulsion slowly started to come off, and to my surprise this morning the image had not completely disappeared, but only partially (after 9 hours of soaking).
I proceeded to immerse another plate and increase the dilution to 1+150.

The result obtained with this procedure differs from the desired one, but is so far the closest to it.
I'll keep you updated.

Anyway, thanks so much for helping, you're really kind.

koraks · Apr 29, 2022

You might try somewhat stronger bleach, but splatter it onto the negative with e.g. a toothbrush (don't use it for its original purpose afterwards). So instead of soaking the entire negative, treat it selectively. You could even resort to less destructive chemistry such as plain old Farmer's reducer for this purpose. I've done it on prints; works quite nicely.

NB23 · Apr 29, 2022

I would try a dip in fixer, then let dry without washing. In the sun.
Wash 24 hours later.

nothinghappened · Apr 29, 2022

I had this idea today: what if I bleach and develop the same film over and over?

How can I ruin 4x5 x-ray sheet films?

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